Virgin does not comply with CISAS decision and CISAS is not doing anything about it

isg007

Hi All,
I would be grateful if someone can help. To give some background - I had a an issue with Virgin since May'19 which was not resolved and then raised it with CISAS - who were not great but I accepted their decision and (believe) Virgin has not complied with it. I have re-raised it with CISAS and they have rejected my application.
Adjudicators Decision within the Summary section was as follows:
-  direct that the company shall a. pay to the customer directly a total of £386.07; b. repay to the customer such further charges as the customer can demonstrate to the reasonable satisfaction of the company to have been paid in respect of his services since August 2019; and c. make no further charges to the customer in respect of his services until such time as he enters into a new contract with the company
within the details section the decision relating to last point states: "I therefore find that there was no contract between the customer and the company after April 2019. The company was therefore not entitled to make any charges to the customer after that time, and I find this is unaffected by some limited occasional use of the services by a person at the customer’s home in January 2020." 

I accepted the decision on 03-03-2020 - the guidance from CEDR stated: "The decision is now binding on the company....provide the redress...within 20 working days..."
On 02-04-2020  Virgin responded with "The payment has been marked as sent. A cheque has been requested. ...allow 21 working days for this to arrive.."
On 30-04-2020 Virgin Media (Company) responded with "...our offshore office has been closed and ....impacted on the company’s ability to issue cheque payments to customers. ...confirm that in your matter, a credit for the full amount £386 as agreed, has been issued and applied to your account... we will not be issuing a cheque payment. Instead this credit will remain on your account and will be used to offset against any future bills payable by you."

I complaint to CEDR and highlighted the following points:
Point 1 - They did not respond within 20 working days but actually within 23 working days (i.e. 2/4 vs 3/3)
Point 2 - They never requested a cheque because my virgin account was credited £777.07 on 2nd April - the credit was in line with the decision (i.e. 386.07+7*48.50)
Point 3 - I do not have a contract with Virgin but they have credited  my old Virgin Account and deduct £48.50 per month from this account. The current balance in this account is £631.57 credit. 
CEDR come back and rejected my case with the following "On 30/04/20 Virgin advised they would be making payment as a credit and we note that the company is obliged to provide you with a payment. In light of the Covid-19 global health crisis and the UK Government’s advice for people to remain at home, Ofcom has taken the view that communications providers can comply with an obligation from an ADR scheme to make a payment by issuing a credit to a customer account instead of making a direct monetary payment."
The response does not deal with the fact that Virgin is still charging me a monthly fee. If I leave this as it is they will take 48.50 every month and the credit balance will go to NULL. I looked at other schemes such as "Ombudsman Services" - but Virgin is not signed up to that scheme; and Ofcom - which states we cannot deal with individual complaints.
I believe the only option left to me is to contact Virgin and get it resolved with them - but disappointed that Virgin is able to get away with such a poor service and non-compliance with Adjudicator's decision. 

iniltous

If you have had ‘no contract’ with VM since April 2019, is it possible for you to use the services they once supplied , or have they ceased your services ( TV,Phone,Broadband) if you can you still use any of these,  then it begs the question why ?, presumably they should have removed your access if you are not a current customer.

If you have no working services with them, then obviously, I would have thought it illegal for them to make any unauthorised pavement to themselves from your ( less than ideal ) credit in a dormant account...it seems odd to me that if you have left VM , that it’s acceptable to pay compensation as a credit on an account with a company you don’t want to use ( assuming that’s the case and you asked and they ceased your services ), if you continued to be a VM customer , then crediting your account doesn’t seem that unreasonable, given that you didn’t leave the company.

If the arbitrator has deemed it acceptable for VM to apply a credit , and they are running that credit down ( presumably claiming they are providing services ) the question I would be asking is why they think you are a current customer if you are not one, if you are a still a customer and could use the services they are providing, then paying for them is a given.

If the current ‘Covid’ situation relents, and you manage to freeze the balance of the credit , you should ( I would think ) be able to ask for that balance to be refunded by whatever method you used to pay VM , presumably a ( reverse ) direct debit when normal ‘Office’ staffing returns.

If non of this is pertinent, you may need to consult a solicitor, or approach a ‘Media’ consumer champion to see if they would intervene 

isg007

Thank you Iniltous - to give you more information my original contract was for £25 per month in April we had to move out and asked them to stop the service until we move back. They agreed to it but instead of charging me £5 they charged me £45 per month. I have raised this with them numerous time and ultimately gave up.
My understanding is that they continue provide internet services but I am not using it and have not validated it. 
What I cannot understand the arbitrator makes it clear that I do not have a service with them since April'19 and they should not be entitled to make any charges to the customer, i.e. me! 

pphillips

The way I see it is as follows:
The arbitrator has said that you don't have a contract with VM. The arbitrator has also ruled that because of Covid, VM can apply a credit on your account rather provide a refund. Therefore, you will be able to benefit from the whole credit should you decide to agree a contract with VM in the future. Seeing as there is no contract, VM are not entitled to make any deductions from your credit until a new contract has been agreed. You need to point this out to them and the fact that you have shown forbearance by not seeking to recover the debt through the courts.

isg007

Thank you pphilips - Further to your note I have called Virgin at 18:06 and after trying few times was able to talk someone from their retention department, who advised that there is a note in the account that this will get resolved by September 2020 and asked me to be patient. He advised me that there was nothing else he can do. I suspect until then they will deduct 48.50 from my account. As a consumer we need better protection.
I have already spend so much time with Virgin if I had known that CISAS was waste of my time I would have just dealt with Virgin directly as we were coming to a conclusion, but thought via CISAS it will get resolved quicker and fairer. It was a big disappointment - in future I will never use CISAS. 

pphillips

isg007 said:

Thank you pphilips - Further to your note I have called Virgin at 18:06 and after trying few times was able to talk someone from their retention department, who advised that there is a note in the account that this will get resolved by September 2020 and asked me to be patient. He advised me that there was nothing else he can do. I suspect until then they will deduct 48.50 from my account. As a consumer we need better protection.
I have already spend so much time with Virgin if I had known that CISAS was waste of my time I would have just dealt with Virgin directly as we were coming to a conclusion, but thought via CISAS it will get resolved quicker and fairer. It was a big disappointment - in future I will never use CISAS. 

Sorry to hear about your experience with CISAS. My experience with CISAS in the past was very positive. When I made a complaint to VM, the VM representative said I was not going to get any compensation. This situation changed once I contacted CISAS. They got in contact with VM, who quickly offered to satisfy the claim in full. Without CISAS, I feel I never would have received the compensation that I was entitled to.

isg007

thank you pphilips

iniltous

I don’t know if it’s the case with CISAS, but in many  industry’s, the ‘arbitration’ service is funded by the company’s that they supposedly ‘police’, which sounds bad, but , especially for relatively small amounts , probably works in the favour of the complaint, if for argument sake a dispute is over £200, and the arbitration service costs the company £400, win or lose, then from a purely financial point of view it makes more sense to pay the complainant £200 , the validity of the claim isn’t really taken into account.

ColinD1

I wish I had read this 4 weeks ago. I have not written back to CISAS yet as I found their attitude unbelievable. I had requested an explanation, apology and evidence that had modified their processes so it wouldn't happen again proven by the CEO phoning me. Also they would clear my account and pay back the money I had prepaid.

TalkTalk  said they were settling in full.
 They placed three generic documents on file. They sent me a cheque for an arbitrary amount of money which I could not match to anything. Sent me demands for a late payment fee. Phoned and left a message about debt. I think I convinced them of their error and asked for a written confirmation. They refused and refused to put me through to a supervisor, promised a manager call, which never happened.
I think there is very cosy relationship between CISAS and the telcos.  I phoned CISAS at the start of the process as TalkTalk left a message to phone them with a number that was unattended and I had asked not to be contacted by phone and they forwarded my call before I could stop them (with no answer).
The whole process is about money not resolution. As the process has no significant financial penalties this makes perfect economic sense to the bottom line. OFCOM does have teeth, but does not use them often. When they did the companies slip back to their old methods.

luckybert

Similar story for me. Virgin owe me £300 - I'm constantly chasing CISAS but still waiting. If I charged Virgin £100 a day for late payment they would owe me near to £3000 by now.
Where do I go after CISAS? Do I keep chasing CISAS? 

ColinD1

TalkTalk have sent ANOTHER bill. I have asked CISAS to reopen the case, as even by their logic TalkTalk must be in a clear breach. Nothing as yet. The process in broken and CISAS is a toothless lapdog. OFCOM is the watchdog that rarely barks and only used its teeth after numerous people complain and then the companies go back to their old ways. Smells of a cosy club. You can complain about CISAS, it is on their website if you can find it. But not about their decisions. There's yet another independent person who reviews those complaints. There appears to be no way this is fed back. CISAS report to OFCOM, they have meetings but the minutes are secret. The open report has useful statements such as "the complaints process often aggravates the original problem" ( paraphrased from memory). There is no control loop.