CCJ - Unsure If I can fight it!

Le_Kirk

BangeF2 said:

Coupon-mad said:

Yes, distinguish your case from Beavis.  This stage has nothing to do with citing any CPR and is more about case law like Beavis, statute law like the POFA 2012 and the CRA 2015, and the relevant version of the Trade Body code of practice that applied at the time of parking event.

Plus your evidence as to the facts and why you think the driver was authorised and not in breach of any clear terms on prominent signage.

 ok so with the Trade Body code of practice, which apply to my case? My case being that (1) I didn't see the signage, the writing is small and that (2) in the time of now, as I am dealing with it, I cannot remember any of the other facts or details as to why i parked there etc. I also plan to add that a few years later, once I hear that people were getting tickets for parking there, we noticed a lady walking around the area booking people and taking pictures, immediately as they stopped in the area without any notice or warning. I have 9 tickets, surely if someone who was taking the pictures etc had come over to me I would have stopped parking there. 

(1) Be careful; if you didn't see any signs, how do you know the writing was small.  Just need to explain to teh judge tha you investigated this after receiving the claim.
(2) What does this mean?

BangeF2

Le_Kirk said:

BangeF2 said:

Coupon-mad said:

Yes, distinguish your case from Beavis.  This stage has nothing to do with citing any CPR and is more about case law like Beavis, statute law like the POFA 2012 and the CRA 2015, and the relevant version of the Trade Body code of practice that applied at the time of parking event.

Plus your evidence as to the facts and why you think the driver was authorised and not in breach of any clear terms on prominent signage.

 ok so with the Trade Body code of practice, which apply to my case? My case being that (1) I didn't see the signage, the writing is small and that (2) in the time of now, as I am dealing with it, I cannot remember any of the other facts or details as to why i parked there etc. I also plan to add that a few years later, once I hear that people were getting tickets for parking there, we noticed a lady walking around the area booking people and taking pictures, immediately as they stopped in the area without any notice or warning. I have 9 tickets, surely if someone who was taking the pictures etc had come over to me I would have stopped parking there. 

(1) Be careful; if you didn't see any signs, how do you know the writing was small.  Just need to explain to teh judge tha you investigated this after receiving the claim.
(2) What does this mean?

1. I have looked through the pictures of the signage in the SAR pack - its info is small and was set high on some pole so that is probably why i didnt see it! Please see a pic of it below: 



2. In the present day, I dont remember much of that time. I wouldnt have parked there if it was obvious that i wasnt allowed to. 

I feel that my only defence is that the signs werent set up clearly to see. 

Im not sure which ICP cop apply to my case? 

BangeF2

Just to be clear so I know exactly what i need to include in my bundle: 

1. WS - Includes details of my experiences of receiving all the PCNs plus POFA info that applies

2. Defence - Template with point 2 and 3 changed

3. Evidence to back up the defence. - How do I go about putting this together? What evidence am I actually using? Pictures of signage that isnt clear to be seen? etc and where do I add this? In the defence or in the WS? or separate appendices? 

4. Do I also need to add a court order (like with a CCJ) outlining what i want the court to do etc and according to what legislation/CPR?

Any thing else? 

If you could provide a break down of this, that would be really helpful. Once I know I will get on to the write up today and post here for you guys to check. 

@Redx @Coupon-mad @Le_Kirk @Jenni_D@Umkomaas - Thank you 

Coupon-mad

Evidence can include Google Street view from that date.  Use the little date arrow to go back in years for older images.

And the IPC CoP from that date.   Google, find it and read it.  You know the date of the parking event, so it's that version from that year.  They all have the year on the Code version so you need to Google back through the versions.

A witness statement looks like the examples posted by @Nosy and @jrhys and no, you don't need a draft Order.

BangeF2

Coupon-mad said:

Evidence can include Google Street view from that date.  Use the little date arrow to go back in years for older images.

And the IPC CoP from that date.   Google, find it and read it.  You know the date of the parking event, so it's that version from that year.  They all have the year on the Code version so you need to Google back through the versions.

A witness statement looks like the examples posted by @Nosy and @jrhys and no, you don't need a draft Order.

ok but i have nine different tickets (all from the same year) and only four were referred to on the CCJ claim form. Which dates should i refer to? all of them? it makes sense to do this and as it is for the same location, just different bay each time so im guessing the evidence will be the same too? 

Redx

You can only refer to the ones listed on the claim form , so if only 4 from 9 , just those 4 they are claiming for

BangeF2

Redx said:

You can only refer to the ones listed on the claim form , so if only 4 from 9 , just those 4 they are claiming for

thank you. So it doesnt matters that theyve referred to all the others in the letter before claim form? and they won't fire these shots to the other ones when they set up their own defence or ws? I just want to make sure i cover all basis. 

BangeF2

Coupon-mad said:

Evidence can include Google Street view from that date.  Use the little date arrow to go back in years for older images.

And the IPC CoP from that date.   Google, find it and read it.  You know the date of the parking event, so it's that version from that year.  They all have the year on the Code version so you need to Google back through the versions.

A witness statement looks like the examples posted by @Nosy and @jrhys and no, you don't need a draft Order.

Google maps for this area only goes back to 2018!

BangeF2

ok so the info in the SAR just doesn't really reflect well in terms of what theyre claiming against on the form. 

In the claim form, it says 'parking stipulate on the signage (the contract) at xX location on dates 12/x/x, date 2, date 3, date 4, thus incur the parking charges of the PCN'

I havent posted the actual dates in case theyre watching which im sure they are. Anyway date 2,3 and 4 ARE ALL THE SAME. is there are pofa or abuse of process which I could refer to for this, as they alll should really count as one and therefore the charges are invalid, right?

@Coupon-mad
@Redx
@Le_Kirk

BangeF2

i dont have much time to edit this and will only be sending the IPC notice plus the images from the claimants log as evidence as google maps does go as far back as 2017 for this area. It is quite new due to the new builds which is why i didnt know you couldnt park there!

The facts as known to the Defendant:

2.       It is admitted that the Defendant was the registered keeper of the vehicle in question but liability is denied. It is admitted that the Defendant was the driver of the vehicle in question at the time.

3.    At no time on the date in question did the Defendant see any signage indicating that the site in question was subject to terms and conditions restricting parking nor that there were conspicuous indications that the area in which the Defendant parked was – as claimed – a “No Parking Area”. The Defendant parked in space known to be vacant and suitable for parking as the Defendant had parked there on occasion in the preceding months, without issue and without knowledge or sight of any terms and conditions. As a former resident at the block of flats which the parking area serves, the Defendant was well aware of the parking positioning required to ensure egress and ease of access and therefore parked accordingly. The Claimant has provided a photograph of a sign purported to be at the site in question, but provides no evidence to suggest that the Defendant did, or was able to, see the signage or that the signage was conspicuous or relevant to the area in which the defendant had parked. 

The Defendant is familiar with location as it was behind the flats in which they lived and was currently being developed as new flats were being built. At the time, it was in the knowledge that the bays and areas around the bays were open to all, unallocated and unrestricted. The bays were never full so there was no reason to believe there was any issue. There was also no parking meter or ticket allocator present in the area in which one would notice and assume that a ticket or permit would need to be bought.

This Claimant has share pictures of signage however due to the zoomed in nature of the pictures. It is unclear where they are exactly situated and whether they are easy to be found. Additionally, when searching of google maps to see where the signs are located, it is impossible to make a historical search before 2018. The dates of the parking charges are all issued in 2017 so it is impossible to see where the signage was actually situated. 

The dates and times of the parking charges on the claim form are from x ,  x , x , x. There are all charges made within the winter months when the days are darker and visibility can be obscured. Had the signs been put up during these times and if the defendant  had noticed them it would have been difficult to make sense of the signage and what it actually said. The pictures of the signage provided by the claimant, suggest that they were situated somewhere high, where even the picture taker appears to have taken the picture from a lower angle making it difficult to see and read. Additionally the small writing, making it impossible to read the actual details of what the signs actually say. As there was limited visibility of signage in and around the controlled area that the defendant did not find easy to see, otherwise they would not have parked there, thus not adhering to the IPC code of practice version 6 from April 2017. 

Additionally, The Defendant cannot be held liable because the Claimant has not complied with the keeper liability requirements set out in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 for the following reasons:

(2)The notice must—

(b)sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.

(6)A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4))

The Penalty Charge Notice was sent to the wrong address when the correct address could have been easily sourced by the claimant with a simple check to the creditors like Experian, especially if they had not received any replied from sending the paper work to the previous address. 

Also, the claimant shows capability of doing sourcing the correct address as they did so later when sending a ‘letter before claim’ to the correct address of the defendant in 2019, which questions why they didn’t just do the same search in 2017 to ensure the parking charge notices were delivered to the correct address. 

Furthermore, The Claimant’s Parking Charge Notices as provided by the claimants log from the SAR request, dated x,x ,x x,  was served outside the period mandated by Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”), and is therefore null and of no effect. Consequently, the Claimant is unable to hold the Defendant liable as the vehicle keeper. The Notice alleges that the vehicle was observed at 9:05am but stated as 9:07am on the case evidence report provided by the claimant which shows a discrepancy between the real time the parking charge notice was filled. The times for the date x suggest the times of the parking charge were: 07.19am, 16:18, and the final parking charge notice for the third alleged parking notice and date is non existent in the claimant evidence log and details provided in the SAR request. Also, these parking times do not state a period of parking, only a single time, which is mandated by Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”). The Claimant’s Approved Trade Association, the International Parking Community (“IPC”), mandates that a minimum 10 minute grace period must be allowed before any parking enforcement occurs.

any changes? 

Working on my WS now. 

Also i have a question. If i dont file a defence, if i dont send any paper work off, what is likely to happen? Will I be sent a bill to fulfil the costs on the claim form within a month so the CCJ doesnt go back on? Im quite busy with my self employed businesses and i dont know if the stress of doing all of this is worth all the hassle. My MH was impacted a lot when finding out about the CCJs last year.  While the judge was impressed with my CCJ paper work, I just dont have the time to put in the same effort right now. I do believe in fighting for principle and what is right but im just trying to weigh up my options and trying to be smart about picking my battles.