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How can a third party - 'the keeper' be responsible for someone else's alleged contract?

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  • Fruitcake
    Fruitcake Posts: 59,463 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 13 July 2020 at 1:50PM
    That's a NTD, not an NTK. You need to see what the latter says if/when it arrives. If you already have it, please show it to us, suitably redacted of course.
    If you haven't received one by midnight tomorrow, then it will be out of time for keeper liability to apply.

    You should complain to the IPC that The Driver handed this to The Keeper, but The Keeper has been prohibited from appealing.

    You should also complain to the DVLA about the same issue.

    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister. :D
    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
  • Fruitcake
    Fruitcake Posts: 59,463 Forumite
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    Have you checked that the details on the V5C are correct and up to date? You don't want the NTK to go to an old address.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister. :D
    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 152,371 Forumite
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    edited 13 July 2020 at 2:13PM
    A windscreen PCN is not capable of keeper liability.  As Fruitcake says, we meant the NTK.

     Im trying to establish whether its easier to appeal as keeper, or whether the drivers position as an essential worker responding to Covid-19 planning will be accepted as mitigating cicrumstances.
    Let's see the NTK first because it might be worth a combination of both approaches - i.e. the keeper appeals - if they still can without resorting to the unusable IAS £15 'non-standard' (non-compliant) ADR - but says that the driver was an NHS Ambulance driver and what they were doing during COVID.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Totum20
    Totum20 Posts: 13 Forumite
    10 Posts
    Fruitcake said:
    That's a NTD, not an NTK. You need to see what the latter says if/when it arrives. If you already have it, please show it to us, suitably redacted of course.
    If you haven't received one by midnight tomorrow, then it will be out of time for keeper liability to apply.

    You should complain to the IPC that The Driver handed this to The Keeper, but The Keeper has been prohibited from appealing.

    You should also complain to the DVLA about the same issue.

    Here it is. 

    Im curious about your observation re: the keeper being able to appeal. The PCN states the driver can, but offers the keeper no option. The NTK says any option to appeal has been forfeited. I agree that the keeper should be given the option, and an option of reduced fine if paid early (after all this may be the first time they've know about it) but I cannot find anything in PoFA that explicitly says the keeper must be given the chance to appeal. If I'm wrong please point me to the correct para.
  • Fruitcake
    Fruitcake Posts: 59,463 Forumite
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    edited 13 July 2020 at 2:23PM
    That NTK is PoFA compliant except that it does not allow a keeper to appeal. A complaint should be made to the ICP and DVLA as a result. 
    Read what the IPC CoP says about the rights of a keeper to appeal. 
    Also look at the requirements of the ADR Act 2015 that states a consumer has the right to appeal for up to twelve months. 

    Complain to your MP about this unregulated scam.

    It is unfair that a scammer can hold a keeper liable, but not give them the right to appeal. This is surely a breach of the Consumer Rights Act.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister. :D
    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 152,371 Forumite
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    edited 13 July 2020 at 2:19PM
    option to appeal has been forfeited. 
    No the option for the DRIVER to appeal has gone. 

    The keeper can appeal a NTK.  That NTK does comply with Sch4 para 8.

    The fact the right to 'keeper liablity' was originally withheld in 2012 - the POFA Sch4 was not fully enacted - until the industry provided the keeper with an independent appeal (at that time POPLA).  This shows that a keeper can appeal.  The POFA depended upon that right.

    Just appeal - the NTK does say you can but words it in a way that suggests you can't!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Totum20
    Totum20 Posts: 13 Forumite
    10 Posts
    option to appeal has been forfeited. 
    No the option for the DRIVER to appeal has gone. 

    The keeper can appeal a NTK.  That NTK does comply with Sch4 para 8.

    The fact the right to 'keeper liablity' was originally withheld in 2012 - the POFA Sch4 was not fully enacted - until the industry provided the keeper with an independent appeal (at that time POPLA).  This shows that a keeper can appeal.  The POFA depended upon that right.

    Just appeal - the NTK does say you can but words it in a way that suggests you can't!
    :) I'm starting to see the enjoyment in fighting these things.

    I'll await my investigations into whether Alliance have landowner authority and the DVLA to confirm Alliance requested my info correctly. Then assuming at least one of those is in my favour I will appeal.  

    Thanks for your help so far everyone. Its been an enjoyable lesson.
  • Fruitcake
    Fruitcake Posts: 59,463 Forumite
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    edited 13 July 2020 at 2:29PM
    The PoFA 2012
    Sch 4 Para 8
    (2) The notice must
    (g) inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;

    This implies that a keeper must be offered dispute resolution.

    Do make all the complaints as advised. 
    Do appeal as keeper using the blue template from The NEWBIES. Ensure that it states you are appealing as keeper, irrespective of what the NTK says.

    Sign it off as, Totum20,  Registered Keeper.

    If the online appeal portal does not allow a keeper appeal, then send it by post, first class, from a Post Office counter, obtaining the all important free proof of posting.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister. :D
    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
  • nosferatu1001
    nosferatu1001 Posts: 12,961 Forumite
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    Eh, no it doesnt 
    It says the arrangements for... that are available
    If there are none available, they dont have to state them.
    However as noted, it does state you can appeal, as keeper, but puts you off by stating "execptional" reasons for doing so. 
  • Totum20
    Totum20 Posts: 13 Forumite
    10 Posts
    Fruitcake said:
    The PoFA 2012
    Sch 4 Para 8
    (2) The notice must
    (g) inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;

    This implies that a keeper must be offered dispute resolution.
    I agree. I also believe that a discount should be offered at this stage to the keeper since it was offered to the driver. I will be thinking more about this route.  They have offered appeal outside of the drivers 21 days, but not any offer for discount. Which to be honest I'd probably pay the original £60 if it was an available option. 

    Unfortunately I have to balance the 'principle' with my cost in time.

    You peeps have been amazing. I hope that I can help others with my experiences in the future.
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