Lost share certificate

bikeman

Hi,
looking to understand why I need to replace a lost share certificate. I registered an account with shareview and it recognised my shareholder reference number which obviously shows the platform has looked up a transfer agents share database and verified my holding.
That being the case, when I spoke to shareview I was told that if I had lost the certificate, it would be cancelled and I would have to pay an indemnity to get a replacement.
But if there's already an electronic record of my holding why on earth would I need a paper certificate?
What would happen if I just went ahead and sold them - the platform doesn't seem to prevent me from selling.
Thanks

AnotherJoe

Perhaps they have a record that you also have a paper certificate (oh why oh why????) and so want indemnity in case you already sold it to someone else ?

bikeman

Possibly, but how could I have sold them without the share record being updated - sales are all electronic now so it would be updated instantaneously?
It does seem ridiculous that I'm expected to hold onto a piece of paper forever, especially as there's a record of my holding. And I can't even get a replacement without an indemnity.

Thrugelmir

Shares can still be held in paper certificate form. Broker will require the actual share certificate to undertake the trade. 

AnotherJoe

bikeman said:

Possibly, but how could I have sold them without the share record being updated - sales are all electronic now so it would be updated instantaneously?
It does seem ridiculous that I'm expected to hold onto a piece of paper forever, especially as there's a record of my holding. And I can't even get a replacement without an indemnity.

You could have sold them simply by exchanging  the bit of paper with someone else  for money. 

Yes it is ridiculous that you had this share in paper certificate form - why did you get the bit of paper? Did you inherit ?

bowlhead99

bikeman said:

Possibly, but how could I have sold them without the share record being updated - sales are all electronic now so it would be updated instantaneously?
It does seem ridiculous that I'm expected to hold onto a piece of paper forever, especially as there's a record of my holding. And I can't even get a replacement without an indemnity.

Legally the share register itself, maintained by the company or its registrar, is the important thing, because it shows who is going to get dividends, voting rights, and any proceeds on the winding up of the company. A share certificate is literally a certification that your name is in the register of members of the company for a certain number of shares.

However, the register only gets updated as some point after a transfer of ownership has taken place. And the transfer itself only takes place when one party has delivered their cash (a few days after they committed to purchase the shares for an agreed price) and the other party surrenders ownership (at the same time, i.e. a few days after their stockbroker agreed their bargain). Known as settlement date, as distinct from trade date when you commit to the deal.

Brokers typically arrange share trades on a London market standard T+2 days settlement, but can also deal on extended settlement terms such as T+5, T+10 or T+20. So the registrar's latest register is only really up to date for transactions up to Tuesday 30th for T+2 settlement, and for transactions up to about a month ago which were agreed on a T+20 and settled in the last few days. Other transactions and transfers will still be in progress.

If I place an order to buy or sell a share today on the stock market, it does not settle (with the cash going one way and the giving up of share ownership going the other way) until T+2 business days which is Tuesday. So by Monday, or even Friday afternoon, I know that I've already contracted to sell these shares, but the company itself doesn't know, and the register is accurate right now but won't be accurate for long, because a deal is in progress.

So a stockbroker doesn't want to take my order to sell my shares unless he knows I'm good for them - for all he knows, I could be agreeing orders today with twenty different brokers to sell the same shares that are showing as being in my name on a recent copy of the company's share registers, and instructing them to invest the proceeds on buying shares of some other company which will also settle on Tuesday.

When broker 1 receives cash from Mr Smith on Tuesday to settle the sale of 1000 Company A shares that he brokered for me this morning, and broker 2 receives cash from Mr Jones to settle the sale of the same 1000 Company A shares that he brokered for me this lunchtime, and broker 3 receives cash from Mr Bloggs to settle the sale of the same 1000 Company A shares that he brokered for me this afternoon, and broker 3 sends that cash to Mrs Doe having also brokered a deal to buy me 500 shares of Company B...

... there is going to be a huge problem if I actually only own 1000 shares and can only fulfill my end of the bargain in one of the trades by giving up my share ownership to one of Smith, Jones or Bloggs.

Or perhaps I had already agreed yesterday to sell my shares via broker 4 to Mr Harris, which will settle on Monday leaving me with no shares at all when we go into Tuesday and everything needs to be settled via brokers 1,2,3. Or perhaps I had executed a share transfer form yesterday in favour of my wife, and posted it to the registrar, who will receive it on Saturday and update the share register to say that my wife owns the shares and I don't. In which case the sales to Smith, Jones, Bloggs and Harris are all just built on a fantasy.

For this reason, if you want to sell shares which are currently registered in your name on the share register (as opposed to shares which are already legally registered in the name of a broker nominee company on your behalf, where the broker is already holding the shares that you propose to sell), brokers 1,2,3,4 will all tell you that they won't deal without your commitment to supply the share certificate prior to settlement date of the transaction.

If you can't do that, you can give them an admin fee and some insurance money on top, for them to insure themselves against the fallout from setting up a bunch of transactions which have to be reneged on once it's discovered that in at least some of the transactions you were lying that you really had good title to the shares and had not already dealt them. The admin fee may be a fixed arbitrary amount while the insurance indemnity may be linked to the value of the proposed transaction.


The 'electronic share ownership' system is different from simply giving your details to Shareview to have a reminder of your holdings in a simple online database. When we talk of holding shares electronically, what we usually mean is:

I can ask my broker to hold shares for me entirely electronically (de-materialised). In that case, the broker or his special nominee company becomes the legal owner of the shares (held electronically) but I am the underlying beneficial owner based on the broker's own records (which he could - but does not always - share with the company itself).

If I was using a nominee arrangement and I want to sell my shares, it is very easy. The broker knows he is the legal owner of a pile of shares in the company. And he knows that a bunch of those shares that he's holding legally in his name, beneficially belong to me, because he has the records to prove it. If I want him to sell, he can simply sell the shares that he knows that he already holds, and give me the money.

If it's currently me and not my broker that legally owns the shares, then I am going to need to personally give up my rights to the shares as part of the sales process. To do that, a broker acting on my behalf to sell shares in the market will need to know that I definitely have the rights in the first place. If there is no share cert, it's all very well saying, "ah well, you see, I lost or destroyed it but don't worry, I haven't already agreed any sales to anybody else and nobody else has used it to pose as me and sell the shares using that certificate, so please just take my word for it, because the register shows I am the owner..." 

But the broker won't buy that idea because they know brokers have been burned by it before. So indemnity is standard when your name (rather than a broker's name under a nominee arrangement) is on the share register and you want to sell or transfer ownership.

bikeman

Ok that mostly makes sense.
I have several share holdings that were bought many years ago - they are actually my fathers. We do receive dividends.

I registered an account a shareview because I thought that some shares were already held by them, I didn't realise that it was just a simple register lookup. So the problem I have now is, if we have shares that are already held 'dematerialised' with a platform how would we identify which platform?

I know we have some at signalshares and they also show our holding but it must be more than a simple register lookup since I can  redirect the dividend payments but they also insist that I should have a share certificate. How can they allow me to direct the divs if they can't be sure I am the owner?

Finally we get statements from barclays sharestore. But I don't have a sharestore login. They referred me to shareview again but that's just for online statements? I'd like to amend the dividend direction as it is currently buying additional shares but have no idea where I should be able to do this. 

Lastly, is it the case with all platforms that once shares are held by them I lose voting rights, shareholder perks etc?
Thanks

AnotherJoe

bikeman said:

Ok that mostly makes sense.
I have several share holdings that were bought many years ago - they are actually my fathers. We do receive dividends.

1. I registered an account a shareview because I thought that some shares were already held by them, I didn't realise that it was just a simple register lookup. So the problem I have now is, if we have shares that are already held 'dematerialised' with a platform how would we identify which platform?

2.I know we have some at signalshares and they also show our holding but it must be more than a simple register lookup since I can  redirect the dividend payments but they also insist that I should have a share certificate. How can they allow me to direct the divs if they can't be sure I am the owner?

3. Finally we get statements from barclays sharestore. But I don't have a sharestore login. They referred me to shareview again but that's just for online statements? I'd like to amend the dividend direction as it is currently buying additional shares but have no idea where I should be able to do this. 

4. Lastly, is it the case with all platforms that once shares are held by them I lose voting rights, shareholder perks etc?
Thanks

1 Usually you woudl know because you bought the shares via that broker or subsequently transferred them there. If you held the paper then lost it and forgot who they are with then if you are getting dividends you can go via that route, whose paying the dividends?

2. This is a guess, Its historical. They have always sent money to person X and no ones kicked up a stink about it and asked "where are my dividends" so there's a reasonable assumption they are Person X's . When you want to change it to Person Y, or even person X at bank Y, now the new stricter regs kick in and they want to check.

3. Dunno. DId you ask Sharestore hwo to amend dividend instructions?

4. No, not all. Depends on the platform and possibly the share/company.

I sugegst, as you clear this all up you get it all transferred to an online broker.

[Deleted User]

Hi,

there seems to be a bit of confusion here, well, I'm confused.

One minute you say:

"I registered an account with shareview and it recognised my shareholder reference number"

then you say:

"I have several share holdings that were bought many years ago - they are actually my fathers."

So who is the registered shareholder?

bikeman

AnotherJoe said:

bikeman said:

Ok that mostly makes sense.
I have several share holdings that were bought many years ago - they are actually my fathers. We do receive dividends.

1. I registered an account a shareview because I thought that some shares were already held by them, I didn't realise that it was just a simple register lookup. So the problem I have now is, if we have shares that are already held 'dematerialised' with a platform how would we identify which platform?

2.I know we have some at signalshares and they also show our holding but it must be more than a simple register lookup since I can  redirect the dividend payments but they also insist that I should have a share certificate. How can they allow me to direct the divs if they can't be sure I am the owner?

3. Finally we get statements from barclays sharestore. But I don't have a sharestore login. They referred me to shareview again but that's just for online statements? I'd like to amend the dividend direction as it is currently buying additional shares but have no idea where I should be able to do this. 

4. Lastly, is it the case with all platforms that once shares are held by them I lose voting rights, shareholder perks etc?
Thanks

1 Usually you woudl know because you bought the shares via that broker or subsequently transferred them there. If you held the paper then lost it and forgot who they are with then if you are getting dividends you can go via that route, whose paying the dividends?

2. This is a guess, Its historical. They have always sent money to person X and no ones kicked up a stink about it and asked "where are my dividends" so there's a reasonable assumption they are Person X's . When you want to change it to Person Y, or even person X at bank Y, now the new stricter regs kick in and they want to check.

3. Dunno. DId you ask Sharestore hwo to amend dividend instructions?

4. No, not all. Depends on the platform and possibly the share/company.

I sugegst, as you clear this all up you get it all transferred to an online broker.

1. At shareview I used their public share enquiry lookup to validate our holding of lloyds shares that I had a certificate number for but had lost the certificate. I have to wait for a postal acknowledgement before I can login and see them. We haven't had dividends for a number of years and I'm doubtful that opening a shareview account will resolve that.

2.  At signalshares I was able to get a login and amend all personal details for a holding of itv shares just by providing personal details. ITV had sending div cheques so I added bank acct number and it accepted it. Hence my questioning why they let me do this but still tell me I should have share certificate if I want to sell.

3. Barclays sharestore told me that buying/selling was also via shareview (as per 1 above) but have never given us a login with them. It seems strange that we get annual statements and dividends from sharestore but have no where to login, change address, bank details etc. I tried using the shareview public share lookup service but it didn't recognise any of our barclays sharestore numbers. So I'm wondering how they will even pull in the barclays shares when the shareview account is registered. In the meantime divs are being used to buy additional shares and we can't turn that off. Maybe someone with a Barclays Sharestore account can advise how it works with shareview? 

4. ok
Thanks again

bikeman

[Deleted User] said:

Hi,

there seems to be a bit of confusion here, well, I'm confused.

One minute you say:

"I registered an account with shareview and it recognised my shareholder reference number"

then you say:

"I have several share holdings that were bought many years ago - they are actually my fathers."

So who is the registered shareholder?

Yes ok, but that's not really important to the information I am trying to gather. The fact of the matter is they are my fathers and I am authorised to manage his finances. I am trying to sort this out because he has been unable to.