Neon Reef - any views?

MWT

Telegraph_Sam said:

Liku said:

Deleted_User said:

@liku Martin maintains that it is perfectly reasonable to ask a supplier to justify in detail any large increase in direct debit, and negotiate. Furthermore Ofgem says you are perfectly entitled to claim a credit at any time. I can send you the Ofgem link if you want that says that. 

Ok thanks. She is trying to claim the credit and stop them increasing it but if they continue to act like this it might be helpful to pass it on. 

This point crops up habitually in this and other threads and always seems to be a grey area:

If one's account is in credit and not about to go into obvious massive debit, what right has the supplier to force through D/D's which will raise the credit balance unnecessarily?  On the pretext that winter is coming and "we (not you) think that this is what your coming expenditure will be, and we demand that this should be financed by you up front". "And if you don't agree we will switch you onto our SV tariff".

Although there is much that bothers me about Neon Reef, they are at least very clear on this point with any customers joining them at the moment, with their high/low 30% shift between winter and summer.

As long as the expected annual usage is not manipulated outside of any demonstrable trend in the customers consumption, there can be no complaint about the level of DD as people were warned up front.

Patr100

Well NF were required to pay the 350k by the end of last month so we should know pretty soon if they have defaulted and it escalates , depending on when the 2 month window starts.

Neon Reef provided satisfactory assurances in September 2021 that it would make the necessary payments by 31 October 2021. However, following a request from the Authority on 15 October 2021, Neon Reef failed to provide any evidenced assurances that it would still be in a position to make the necessary payments together with accrued interest in order to meet its RO by 31 October 2021 and hence was likely to contravene the RO. This is wholly unacceptable. The ROO and the ROS provides a two month window for late payments to be made and (beyond this) makes no provision for flexible or extended payment arrangements. 

Inigo_Montoya

WRT to building up a credit with Neon Reef I think the trick is to provide a very low estimated annual usage when you first join as they initially set the direct debit based on the figure YOU give them

They can increase the DD later of course but maybe the way to possibly avoid that is not to give them any meter readings if you do not have a smart meter they can read themselves

It would then depend on how the estimated reads are calculated i.e. would it be based on the low annual consumption you provided or would it be based on previous real historical reads 

I certainly would not advise giving "fake" low readings though 

BigBlueSky

Inigo_Montoya said:

WRT to building up a credit with Neon Reef I think the trick is to provide a very low estimated annual usage when you first join as they initially set the direct debit based on the figure YOU give them

I think this is the thing to do with ANY energy supplier and what I always do.  I much prefer to be in the position where I need to make an additional 'one-off' payment to bring the account into line rather than the account being in credit all the time.

WillPS

I do hope there is some investigation in to whether the directors fulfilled their legal obligation to declare the business insolvent, whenever they eventually do. 

wittynamegoeshere

Either this company is heading towards the buffers or already trading while insolvent or they have some massive investors behind them who are prepared to bankroll them selling at a loss so that they can grab all the customers while nobody else is, ready for the profitable times ahead at some point in the future.

I can't help thinking that if the third option was a sensible plan then some of the others with massive funds available might be playing the same game.  But they're not.

Where are the directors based?  Someone alleged that Symbio's directors were in India, if so then they're probably not subject to UK law in any practical terms.

WillPS

wittynamegoeshere said:

Either this company is heading towards the buffers or already trading while insolvent or they have some massive investors behind them who are prepared to bankroll them selling at a loss so that they can grab all the customers while nobody else is, ready for the profitable times ahead at some point in the future.

I can't help thinking that if the third option was a sensible plan then some of the others with massive funds available might be playing the same game.  But they're not.

Where are the directors based?  Someone alleged that Symbio's directors were in India, if so then they're probably not subject to UK law in any practical terms.

If they had shareholders willing to bankroll them indefinitely they would be paying their bills tho, surely?

wittynamegoeshere

I'm trying to show an attempt at balance, so I don't get accused of being some kind of "Death to Neon Reef" cheerleader or whatever people seem to think.

I don't think there is any rational explanation for their behaviour, I can't imagine how they can possibly have any plan other than pulling in as many direct debits as they can get away with before they're forced to close.

If they're able to keep increasing the number of new customers faster than the bills and demands come in, the plates could keep spinning for quite a while.  It's entertaining but in a weird and concerning way.

WillPS

I was one of the voices erring on the side of caution a month ago, when NR had recently paid off the previous Ofgem order.

At this point though one can only conclude that they are either trading while insolvent or are riding roughshod over their creditors. Either way it's not a good look.

Shedman

wittynamegoeshere said:

Either this company is heading towards the buffers or already trading while insolvent or they have some massive investors behind them who are prepared to bankroll them selling at a loss so that they can grab all the customers while nobody else is, ready for the profitable times ahead at some point in the future.

I can't help thinking that if the third option was a sensible plan then some of the others with massive funds available might be playing the same game.  But they're not.

Where are the directors based?  Someone alleged that Symbio's directors were in India, if so then they're probably not subject to UK law in any practical terms.

The directors appear to be UK based (2 were previously registered at personal addresses in Christchurch and Corfe Mullen in Dorset).  A third director Sarah Hayes came on board in Aug 2020..she is also down as British and interestingly also is a director and Chief Ops Officer of SPAA Limited which appears to be something to do governance of inter operational agreements between gas suppliers and transporters (not sure that helps NR as electric only supplier).   She is also director of a company that seems to have something to do with smart energy code, smart meters and DCC. As well as 1 other companies (jointly with the other 2 directors of NR) that is also small and seemingly loss making.

Only £20 share capital all owned by the 3 of them £8/£8/£4.  No indication of any deep pockets shareholders then.

I have to say that much as I'd love them to stay around until after the winter its a mystery to me how they are keeping going.