Electric cars, VED and would you change yet ?

JamoLew

There is't a single EV out there that either:
1) appeals to me -- too small, twee etc
2) is in my "price bracket" of <£35k
Untill manufacturers twig onto the fact that people generally are happy with the design of cars and there is no need to change that and untill the cost comes down, I will stick with my diesel thanks
The amount I would save in fuel over a 5 year period would just about cover the price difference between vehicles and I would rather stick with a design that I actually quite like and the convenience of being able to refuel for 400+ miles in less than 5 min

DrEskimo

JamoLew said:

There is't a single EV out there that either:
1) appeals to me -- too small, twee etc
2) is in my "price bracket" of <£35k
Untill manufacturers twig onto the fact that people generally are happy with the design of cars and there is no need to change that and untill the cost comes down, I will stick with my diesel thanks
The amount I would save in fuel over a 5 year period would just about cover the price difference between vehicles and I would rather stick with a design that I actually quite like and the convenience of being able to refuel for 400+ miles in less than 5 min

I completely agree that choice is very limited right now.

However your economic comparison using list prices is a very flawed evaluation. If I told you that a more expensive car has stronger resale values than less expensive cars, you would probably accuse me of pointing out the bleeding obvious, but alas you seem to have forgotten that in your comment comparing the difference in list price and the cost of petrol.

Petrol is a sunk running cost. You buy it, and it's gone. Purchasing a car is not a 100% sunk cost. The car retains value. If the EV is £5-10k more than the ICE equivalent, then it's also likely to be worth a bit more at resale. It is therefore not the difference in list price, but the difference in depreciation costs.

As it happens, EV's have ridiculously strong residuals at the moment. Even before you get to the fuel, VED and servicing savings, the depreciation cost savings alone make EV's much cheaper to run.

I experimented with buying an EV in Feb 2018. I bought a 2-yr old Renault Zoe 41kWh (the battery is owned, I do not pay to lease the battery) with just 5,500 miles on the clock. Does an average of 150miles all year round, typically seeing 130miles in winter and 170miles in summer. Here are all my costs to date:

Advertised price: £15,800
Discounted price: £15,500
Used £1,000 deposit contribution from PCP + 2 free services: £14,500
Settled PCP about 3/4weeks later, so small interest cost: £19
Total cost: £14,519

In the 17-months and 4,900 miles I have driven it, I have so far spent the following:
'Fuel': £97
MOT: £40
Service: Free due to PCP deal (Usually £80 from main dealer).
Wheel Alignment: £36
Insurance premium: ~£200/year, so £300 over 17-months.
Total cost: £473

Current trade in price: £13,500-£14,500
Current private sale price: £15,000

When you consider that an ICE would cost about £550 in fuel and £145 in VED, before you even factor in depreciation and servicing, you realise just how cheap an EV can be due to the strong residuals.

Now factor in that my humble Zoe has one of the best automatic transmissions I have ever driven (zero gears, so constantly in the 'power band', no lag at all) great throttle response and instant torque, you not only have a cheap car, but one that offers a driving experience that no low-end cheap automatic city car can come even remotely close to.

For the record, I also do not have any home charging. I have had very little issue charging at the single and only charge point in my town whilst I do my usual activities (running, gym, shopping), then had a EV charger installed at my parents, so charge at theirs when I visit, and then finally when I moved jobs that required a 80-mile commute (pre-lockdown), they had chargers in the work car park. It's certainly not as ideal as a home charger, but it is possible.

Ditzy_Mitzy

There's no way I can afford an electric car, at present, and it's doubtful that I'd ever have the disposable income necessary to get something like a Tesla.  One has to account, also, for the fact that residual values will stay strong for a while and then fall off a cliff when the cars hit ten years old and the batteries fail.  This affects hybrid cars too; most of the first generation of Priuses, Honda Insights and IMA Civics have been scrapped as the cost of replacing the batteries exceeds the vehicle's value.  Owing to this, the electric car won't go on to have the 'second life' that a petrol one does.  We'll end up with two tier motoring: the middle classes will have electric cars that they run for a short time and then scrap; the working classes will have to stick to petrol and diesel, no doubt making increasingly desperate attempts to keep old stock rolling.  Back to the bad old days, in other words, if anyone remembers the recession conditions of the 1990s and roads full of old bangers running on a wing and a prayer. 
I think there's always going to be a place for the combustion engine, especially in emergency vehicles and other fleet setups where a car is required to be 'on duty' all the time.  It simply wouldn't be possible, for example, to run electric police cars.  Lorries, too, are likely to remain diesel powered for the next half century or so.  The issue isn't the traction motor, there have been powerful enough motors for many decades, it's that you'd need a battery the size of Buckingham Palace to store the electricity necessary to move a 44 tonne weight several hundred miles.  

DrEskimo

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

One has to account, also, for the fact that residual values will stay strong for a while and then fall off a cliff when the cars hit ten years old and the batteries fail.  This affects hybrid cars too; most of the first generation of Priuses, Honda Insights and IMA Civics have been scrapped as the cost of replacing the batteries exceeds the vehicle's value. 

Do they? I've seen no evidence that EV batteries only last 10years? Where are you getting this information from? I have rarely seen degradation below 80% after 5years on anything but the very early Nissan Leafs. My Zoe at 3.5years old is still at 98%. Data from over 6,000 EVs show that the average battery health after 6.5yrs is ~85%.

I've also just check AutoTrader and there are a host of 10-15year old Prius' worth around £1500 that have over 250,000 miles on the clock? Where are you getting this information from?

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

Owing to this, the electric car won't go on to have the 'second life' that a petrol one does. 

Why not? EV's can absolutely have a second life! Many people are buying old low capacity EV's like the Nissan Leaf 22kWh and replacing the battery with the new 40 or 62kWh battery, since they are the same size, just higher density. People are even converting old classic cars into EVs. Then there is the fact you can convert the old battery to a home storage unit.

The possibilities of a second life for EVs are much more pronounced than ICE!

JamoLew

i think the consensus is - each to their own, EV just isn't for me right now for various reasons

gingerdad

I've looked closely at them as lease a company vehicle and after April this year makes sense as 0% income tax, sadly the leasing on the appealing ones like the Kia eNiro and the Hyundai Kona are massively high compared to their diesel counterparts. The only all-electric one in my leasing range was the Leaf but the long range one has a number of flaws.

So I've ended up going with a PHEV Skoda Superb - it will reduce my tax liability from 34% for the diesel to 10% saving me about  £2000 a year in tax. New car arrives tomorrow hopefully

Ectophile

Lorries, too, are likely to remain diesel powered for the next half century or so.  The issue isn't the traction motor, there have been powerful enough motors for many decades, it's that you'd need a battery the size of Buckingham Palace to store the electricity necessary to move a 44 tonne weight several hundred miles.  

Companies such as Tesla are already poised to release electric trucks. The main problem at the moment is a lack of batteries to put in them.

Range is not an issue. Truckers must stop for rest breaks by law. So if every truck stop has charging points, the range only has to be until the next rest break.

Electric trucks will be horrendously expensive. But the savings on diesel and maintenance will also be huge.

Bluebell1000

gingerdad said:

I've looked closely at them as lease a company vehicle and after April this year makes sense as 0% income tax, sadly the leasing on the appealing ones like the Kia eNiro and the Hyundai Kona are massively high compared to their diesel counterparts. The only all-electric one in my leasing range was the Leaf but the long range one has a number of flaws.

So I've ended up going with a PHEV Skoda Superb - it will reduce my tax liability from 34% for the diesel to 10% saving me about  £2000 a year in tax. New car arrives tomorrow hopefully

Interesting. We got our Kia e-niro on a company car lease a few months ago. Comparing prices,  it was about the same monthly price after tax as the non electric niro for us, because of the difference in BIK. So the electric was definitely the way yo go for us, as most journeys are local. We didnt look at the PHEVs though for comparison.
Lockdown started just after the car arrived so we've not done many miles yet, but it's a great car to drive. Fun enough that we are now seriously considering converting our Morris Minor project car to electric when it's at the point of doing the engine bits.  

NBLondon

Right now - the lack of home charging would be my sticking point.   Yes, there are chargers about.   In fact there are 2 or 3 a couple of streets away that were put in for a now-defunct car club operation - if they were made available (and compatible) then it might work with a little bit of organising and planning.  I could certainly do 90% of my trips with a Leaf or an e-Golf or the electric Mini (if they did it as a Clubman).    I also pay the council for the right to park in my street and going electric would reduce that cost as well.   I think it more likely that I might go hybrid first.

Penelopa.Pitstop

I don't plan to get EV ever. Hopefully petrol/diesel cars will survive as long as I live and I don't have to drive EV. I like noise of engine and exhaust and don't want to drive silent car.