London Parking Solutions PCN with photographs, but not good ones! Modify template for 1st appeal?

ElBadger

Hi there,

I've been reading the really helpful forum for a few days now since receiving a PCN as registered keeper from the lovely London Parking Solutions for my vehicle being parked on private property and not displaying a valid permit. I was wondering whether to go to the bother of contesting it or not, but you guys have convinced me it is worth fighting these cowboys!

I didn't receive a window ticket at the time, but got the PCN 5 days later and it seems to comply, but on logging into paymypcn.net I see they have some photos of my car at the location, but they are poor quality and the photo of their signage is blurry and the text illegible. I haven't been able to establish the landowner yet but when I do I will complain to them.

My question is do I modify the blue 1st appeal template as they did send me photos (albeit bad ones), and it did not concern a PDT machine? I have read various threads discussing whether to modify the template or just send as-is because they will reject the appeal anyway, but there didn't seem to be a consensus.

Any advice gratefully recieved as I have to reply to them today on paymypcn.net before it goes up to £100 from £60.

Thanks in advance!

ElBadger

Oh and I visited the location and have photos of their signage which is terrible - see attached. And no close ups of car dashboard in their photos either to show lack of permit - can provide if that would be helpful.

Le_Kirk

You can modify the appeal template just do not give any clues as to who was driving by using "I", "my" etc.  You need to keep the protection that the keeper has in POFA 2012 to make sure you are not responsible for (liable)  the actions of a driver - who, of course, may not have been you!

KeithP

Send the blue text template unchanged. It is asking for all the pictures. You have no idea whether you have all the pictures or not.
Send it as the keeper.

Did you notice that those signs forbid parking for everyone that doesn't have a permit?
That means that they are not offering a contract to park to anyone but permit holders.
If there is no contract on offer, there is no possibility of the contract being broken, is there?

Were you parked in bays 1 - 13? Or perhaps in Bays 1 - 14? - Depending on which sign you read.
Such ambiguity can only work in the favour of the consumer.

Absolutely amazing that they say things like "ANY VEHICLE LEFT UNATTENDED MAY BE REMOVED AT ANY TIME" and "ANY UNAUTHORISED VEHICLES TAXED OR UNTAXED MAY BE REMOVED WITHOUT NOTICE". Such action is illegal.

Umkomaas

The signage is the purported contract you enter into with the parking firm. So which one did you contract with (notwithstanding the fact that all the signage is 'forbidding' meaning they have nothing to offer you a fundamental element of contract law), TCBS Enforcement Agents, or London Parking Solutions Ltd. Additionally, the signage doesn't meet the same high standards The Supreme Court built into their judgment in the ParkingEye v Barry Beavis case where the charge (in that case £85) was in humongous font size - compare that with the size of the font showing the charge on the LPS sign. 

ElBadger

Thanks so much to you all for your swift responses. I will send the appeal template, perhaps with a couple of additions (in bold below), if you think it's worth it?:
Re PCN number:

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner, and to my MP.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require an explanation of the allegation and your evidence. You must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date as well as your images of the vehicle.

If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner.

Your signs forbid parking for anyone except permit holders and as such no contract to park has been offered to anyone other than permit holders, therefore there is no contract on offer to non-permit holders.

You purport that your signage is the contract that the driver enters into, however it is far from clear whether the contract is being entered into with TCBS Enforcement Agents, or London Parking Solutions Ltd.

In addition I contend that the signage at the location in question does not meet the high standards set out by the Supreme Court in their judgement in the case of ParkingEye v Barry Beavis: the size of the text showing the charge is so small as to be practically illegible, and is far smaller than the font used in the  ParkingEye v Barry Beavis case which was deemed to be unacceptable.

Le_Kirk

Be careful with your last paragraph, you used "I" and the PPC might take that as an admission that you were driving, as you saw the sign!  Maybe say "it is averred that the signage..............."

BrownTrout

You do not have to reply today sorry  thats a load of rubbish
Expect the emailed rejection from Robert stephens 
A further letter from solution labs under that name,  2 from their trading name of UCS and two from CSB solicitors 
Thats it job done 

ElBadger

Noted, many thanks Le_Kirk.

And thanks BrownTrout - I did wonder if the 14 days thing was just a ruse to get one to pay up quickly to get them off one's back. Good to know what exactly to expect from them as well, cheers.

BrownTrout

The 14 day period is known as the mugs discount period . 

D_P_Dance

Their signs are confusing imo, to many, read this

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5972164/parking-eye-signs-oxford-road-reading

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP., it can cause the scammer extra costs and work, and in some cases, cancellation. 

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up,

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/of these Private Parking Companies.

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.