Are U1of 3million+ #ExcludedUK Getting NO Govt Support? Join us!

[Deleted User]

SidneySmutt said:

If there is one thing I have learned from this pandemic. Is how little tax the self employed, and owners of LTD compaines pay.

I would not say little, they pay less. Use of dividend combined with PAYE can reduce a tax bill by 16-39% depending on what you earn (less for high earners, more for low earners). Personally I remunerate myself partly through dividend, that reduces my tax bill by around 20%, I still paid nearly £35k in income taxation though, with the company I own having paid over £50k in corporation tax.

gary83

ExcludedUK_NoSupport said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Who are the 3 million getting NO government support?

This is the list 

These are the trade body & ONS stats collated 

It is unprecedented support though isn’t it? that list seems pretty flawed to me;

“IF YOU DONT HAVE PREMISES NO £10k GRANT”

you don’t have the cost of the premises that have been stood empty.

IF YOU DIDNT EMPLOY STAFF NO 80% OF WAGES TO CLAIM FOR
That money goes straight out of the companies bank account to the employee, the employee still accrues holiday, the company isn’t being penalised as it would be no better off financially if it had staff to furlough.

IF YOU’RE A LIMITED COMPANY DIRECTOR PAID PAYE ANNUALLY - YOU CANT EVEN FURLOUGH YOURSELF
Thats not strictly true is it? If you haven’t declared your RTI by the cutoff date then you’re ineligible.

IF YOU'RE ON PARENTAL LEAVE YOU RECEIVE NOTHING
SEISS disregards the first 12 months You were on parental leave receiving nothing. you’re in the same situation as you would have been without a pandemic, you just haven’t profited from it.

IF YOU APPLY FOR UC & YOU HAVE SAVINGS TO PAY FOR TAX - YOU RECEIVE NOTHING
Again not true, money saved to pay tax can be disregarded when it comes to applying for UC

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2020/04/self-employed-with-cash-saved-to-pay-tax--it-won-t-be-counted-as/


IF YOU APPLY FOR UC BUT LIVE WITH A PARTNER WHOS LUCKY ENOUGH TO RECEIVE A WAGE - YOU RECEIVE NOTHING.
thats the same as UC always has been, you don’t necessarily receive nothing it might be reduced. UC is effectively triaged to those that need it most by asking about your savings and household income. if you want to protest about that now then why have you not raised your voice about the “unfairness” of the system when it was affecting so many other people in the past?

finally if that’s the kind of lack of attention to detail or creative writing that excludeduk is producing then it’s not surprising some people are sceptical of any figures or statistics they produce.

justwhat

Its the card you are dealt. The FREE money , hand outs were never going to save every business. Many of the people that are/were excluded should have been in a position to weather the storm. 
Some of your examples are just stupid eg. newly self employed....they have no track record on viability.
Newly employed - again they could be laid off before end of there trial period if covid never existed. Thats the chance you take moving to a new job.
Directors and PAYE / Dividends - There choice to get paid that way. A choice they made.
Over 50k earnings - Ceilings got to be somewhere. 
Many of these people can get BBL, However i am guessing many do not have a viable business to pay it back. 

[Deleted User]

justwhat said:

Many of these people can get BBL, However i am guessing many do not have a viable business to pay it back. 

Many businesses were not viable before Covid-19, so many were loaded up to breaking point with debt that they could never hope to repay, only able to pay the interest until the next time they refinanced.

It is unfortunate in some ways, but the normal boom and bust cycle is very good at clearing out the dead wood, it gets rid of the poorly run, debt laden companies, allowing space for start ups to fill the economic void and flourish, leaving the economy better off. However in the 2008 recession that did not happen because of cheap credit, companies loaded up with debt and the majority who did have never paid it off, their interest costs outstrip their profits. We have not had a "bust" period since the early nineties (the amount of companies that went into liquidation in the 2008 recession was tiny compared to previous recessions, even though 2008 was a deeper economic hit), nearly thirty years ago. That means this time a lot of companies will go bust regardless of what the government does, no point in throwing good money down the drain, let them go under but support expansion of the good companies and new start ups and in 2-3 years the economy will be in a much better place.

If a business was viable before Covid-19, there is a very good chance it will be post and indeed may be in a far better position to flourish (although a few sectors such as aviation and hospitality may suffer more). If it was not viable before then it will probably fail within the next twelve months.

gary83

It’s not a forum just for people that agree with you though is it? Grumpy has done nothing except query your figures & asked you how much you think should have been paid as a lower figure to everyone rather than furlough yet your only response is to repeatedly tell him to stop commenting and that he shouldn’t be on here

Jeremy535897

I don't think that any help is being sought here, as no specific questions are raised. Rather it falls under the heading of support, in that people who feel unfairly treated are seeking to garner support for their cause, or perhaps some emotional support. From that point of view, I don't think picking on particular points of the arguments is useful, unless it helps the cause refine its arguments. Whether I personally think there is any merit in all or any of the arguments is irrelevant, as is whether I think they will get anywhere with any of them. That is why I have refrained from commenting thus far. I can sympathise with people in this position, and I can see why they feel that they were left out. I personally have received nothing at all in support from any scheme or provision, and in my circumstances I accept that that is right.

Senna_1st

@Jeremy535897
Thank you! For actually seeing the point of my original post!😇
I realise in hindsight that it was a mistake putting it on here my aim was to give people in the same position as so many to be able to access support and feel less alone. 

I freely admit I hadn’t thought through the forums usual contributors viewpoint it has been enlightening and fascinating tho! 

Forum admins have been in touch and the post will be amended. 

Thank you so much for your understanding of the disparity in the support schemes which we all appreciate were put together in haste but clearly are divisive rather than inclusive. 

It’s such a complex thing to try and achieve on governments part but their obvious lack of knowledge of how so many SME’s, self employed, freelancers, operate is clear & as for govt & hmrc not working out that RTI is in most cases filed on the last day of the month possible is beyond comprehension so that est 1.5 million new starters could not be included in furlough is beyond me. 31st March should have been the original date set as the announcement of the scheme was 26th March! 

It does feel like millions have been thrown under a bus whereas furlough on 80% was way to generous when spending capabilities were so reduced in lockdown. 

Thank you again 🙏

Senna_1st

@gt94sss2

Thank you for taking the time to respond in a measured manner. 

In my personal view ( I am not part of the campaigns core creation team ) 
The complexities of individual circumstances & small businesses does mean that so many fall outside of any qualifying criteria. 
The schemes were created in haste & therefore in error were too generous for the needs of the majority of employed whilst not actually able to work or spend as normal.

Some form of less generous subsistence scheme for every working taxpayer for the whole period of being unable to earn due to lockdown or indeed ongoing whilst their industry is effectively shut down due to social distancing would have been a more inclusive system. 

A similar system for businesses could have worked better too. 

Yes much harder to create & administer but more fair across the board. 

I see the big problem is that furlough doesn’t encourage ‘Some’ employers to be creative in working out ways to get back to working safely.
As it stands it’s a very costly way of putting off redundancies due to the inevitable shrinkage in many industries & need for the same level of employees. 

No point in debating that tho now. 

Many In the group have accessed BBL’s  myself included, used well to clear finance on equipment etc they are brilliant for reducing outgoings in a lower revenue year to come but many cannot be benefit from them in that way again the complexity of each business structure. 
Many in the group are landlords which upsets the qualifying % for schemes. 

I do realise It was an error on my part to join & start this thread in this forum not being familiar with it. But if just a few people have benefitted from finding support with the group at a difficult time then that was my aim. 

I have found it fascinating and at times enlightening. Thank you.

ComicGeek

Campaigns need to be very, very focused to succeed. Take Martin Rashford's school meals campaign, very simple and incredible effective. You demonstrate that you know what the issue is and how to solve it, and then roll onto the next issue and do the same. It might also include some cost analysis so that the overall benefit and cost is clear.

Unfortunately by trying to include a long list of different individuals/businesses within your campaign it only muddies the water. As you can see from the huge number of responses here, you then open up valid criticisms of some on the list - the government can't say yes to the whole list, so it makes it more difficult for them to engage with. 

Much more effective to pick just one category from the list and put forward a really good case.

Jeremy535897

ExcludedUK_NoSupport said:

@Jeremy535897
Thank you! For actually seeing the point of my original post!😇
I realise in hindsight that it was a mistake putting it on here my aim was to give people in the same position as so many to be able to access support and feel less alone. 

I freely admit I hadn’t thought through the forums usual contributors viewpoint it has been enlightening and fascinating tho! 

Forum admins have been in touch and the post will be amended. 

Thank you so much for your understanding of the disparity in the support schemes which we all appreciate were put together in haste but clearly are divisive rather than inclusive. 

It’s such a complex thing to try and achieve on governments part but their obvious lack of knowledge of how so many SME’s, self employed, freelancers, operate is clear & as for govt & hmrc not working out that RTI is in most cases filed on the last day of the month possible is beyond comprehension so that est 1.5 million new starters could not be included in furlough is beyond me. 31st March should have been the original date set as the announcement of the scheme was 26th March! 

It does feel like millions have been thrown under a bus whereas furlough on 80% was way to generous when spending capabilities were so reduced in lockdown. 

Thank you again 🙏

Thank you. I note that there does appear to be some limited scope for movement for specific special cases:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/self-employed-new-parents-can-claim-support-grant

A similar line was taken for parents returning from parental leave post the cut off date for furlough. 

The government has been very concerned about people rushing out straight after announcements (in the case of CJRS) or at their leisure (SEISS) to do obviously fraudulent things like stick fake employees on payrolls (hence 19 March 2020 cutoff) or twist self employed results (hence 2018/19 cutoff).