Reincorporating an annexe

Bronze

We had originally expected it to go up so that’s fine. It was the talk of improvement markers that confused me.
 I’ll try and ask planning then.
 I’ve messaged the VOA because apparently they have more idea than the council, which isn’t difficult because they had no idea at all. 

I definitely wanr to find out whether it was built deliberately to be an annexe or was converted later as I feel them would be more sympathetic to the later. (I feel it’s the latter looking at it). 

Thunderbolts

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

To be classed as an annexe it has to have its own kitchen and bathroom. Permanently removing either of these and sending evidence to the VOA should be sufficient. They may come and inspect. They may also attach an improvement notice to your council tax band for the main property. 

You need to change things that cannot easily be changed back, like removing plumbing and capping electrics etc. in addition to appliances. It could remain as a utility room with a sink, and keep the bathroom. You just need to enough that it’s longer a kitchen and cannot be simply converted back.
Use a specialist broker to find a lender. I think Nationwide may lend on properties with an annexe.

An annex does not need a bathroom, it only needs "washing facilities" (kitchen sink will suffice) and a WC. The VOA will not attach an improvement marker, as the band for the main house will either be increased or remain as it is.I dealt with many annex situations during my time in the VOA and they were always a pain.

I own a house with an outbuilding in Wales. I converted the outbuilding into an annexe. As the change was made after I purchased it, an improvement marker was added to the main house council tax band. The band for the main house did not change. This marker will only affect the next owner if I sell the property. Dealing with the VOA was straightforward. To change back to an outbuilding I would just need to permanently remove the kitchen/ cooking/ fridge and power/ gas supply to them etc. Your experience may be different.

This is a completely different scenario!

In your case, the annex was in effect an "extension" to the house, therefore it would have an improvement marker. Possibly Welsh CT legislation is different, but in England, if the annex is self contained it would have its own CT band. 

The OP's situation is that there is already a band on the annex, so if it is merged, the band on the main house may increase. If it doesn't then that band will remain even if the house is sold, there is no improvement indicator

It’s exactly the same scenario. My annexe was given its own council tax band and at the same time an improvement marker was placed on the main house.

This doesn't make sense.

Unless you also did work on the main house there would be no need for an improvement marker. I spent 35 yrs in the VOA, the last 12 dealing with CT appeals and overseeing banding. If an annex was created it was given its own band, there was never an improvement indicator placed on the main house.

Ok, well I’m you are mistaken in this instance. No work was carried out on the main house and an improvement indicator was applied.

I'm not mistaken, if no work was carried out there was no need for an improvement indicator. The clue is in the words "improvement indicator", if there is no improvement, there is no need for an indicator. It simply advises that work has been carried out which is not currently reflected in the CT band. You have done no improvements, so the CT band currently reflects everything that is there. 

In the real world it would make little difference. Only if you wanted to sell the house and a prospective purchaser saw the letter I against the VL entry, might it cause a small problem, but you could easily convince them no improvements had been carried out.  

You stated incorrectly that no improvement marker was added to my house, in this you were indeed mistaken.

The obvious improvement is that it has changed from being a house with a derelict outbuilding in the garden to being a house with a fully refurbished self contained annexe in the garden. This is likely to increase the value of the house, in addition to increasing the value of the outbuilding resulting in an improvement marker. As you say, it doesn’t affect me at the moment as the CT may only  rise for the next owner.
I think this is possibly not very relevant to the original question though.

lincroft1710

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

To be classed as an annexe it has to have its own kitchen and bathroom. Permanently removing either of these and sending evidence to the VOA should be sufficient. They may come and inspect. They may also attach an improvement notice to your council tax band for the main property. 

You need to change things that cannot easily be changed back, like removing plumbing and capping electrics etc. in addition to appliances. It could remain as a utility room with a sink, and keep the bathroom. You just need to enough that it’s longer a kitchen and cannot be simply converted back.
Use a specialist broker to find a lender. I think Nationwide may lend on properties with an annexe.

An annex does not need a bathroom, it only needs "washing facilities" (kitchen sink will suffice) and a WC. The VOA will not attach an improvement marker, as the band for the main house will either be increased or remain as it is.I dealt with many annex situations during my time in the VOA and they were always a pain.

I own a house with an outbuilding in Wales. I converted the outbuilding into an annexe. As the change was made after I purchased it, an improvement marker was added to the main house council tax band. The band for the main house did not change. This marker will only affect the next owner if I sell the property. Dealing with the VOA was straightforward. To change back to an outbuilding I would just need to permanently remove the kitchen/ cooking/ fridge and power/ gas supply to them etc. Your experience may be different.

This is a completely different scenario!

In your case, the annex was in effect an "extension" to the house, therefore it would have an improvement marker. Possibly Welsh CT legislation is different, but in England, if the annex is self contained it would have its own CT band. 

The OP's situation is that there is already a band on the annex, so if it is merged, the band on the main house may increase. If it doesn't then that band will remain even if the house is sold, there is no improvement indicator

It’s exactly the same scenario. My annexe was given its own council tax band and at the same time an improvement marker was placed on the main house.

This doesn't make sense.

Unless you also did work on the main house there would be no need for an improvement marker. I spent 35 yrs in the VOA, the last 12 dealing with CT appeals and overseeing banding. If an annex was created it was given its own band, there was never an improvement indicator placed on the main house.

Ok, well I’m you are mistaken in this instance. No work was carried out on the main house and an improvement indicator was applied.

I'm not mistaken, if no work was carried out there was no need for an improvement indicator. The clue is in the words "improvement indicator", if there is no improvement, there is no need for an indicator. It simply advises that work has been carried out which is not currently reflected in the CT band. You have done no improvements, so the CT band currently reflects everything that is there. 

In the real world it would make little difference. Only if you wanted to sell the house and a prospective purchaser saw the letter I against the VL entry, might it cause a small problem, but you could easily convince them no improvements had been carried out.  

You stated incorrectly that no improvement marker was added to my house, in this you were indeed mistaken.

The obvious improvement is that it has changed from being a house with a derelict outbuilding in the garden to being a house with a fully refurbished self contained annexe in the garden. This is likely to increase the value of the house, in addition to increasing the value of the outbuilding resulting in an improvement marker. As you say, it doesn’t affect me at the moment as the CT may only  rise for the next owner.
I think this is possibly not very relevant to the original question though.

I said there was no need for an improvement indicator.

You said "My annexe was given its own council tax band" thus as the annex has its own CT band, the band of the main house cannot be increased on account of the annex. Thus no improvements carried out which would warrant a possible CT band increase following a sale. If the annex did not have its own CT band then an improvement indicator would be justified.

Thunderbolts

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

To be classed as an annexe it has to have its own kitchen and bathroom. Permanently removing either of these and sending evidence to the VOA should be sufficient. They may come and inspect. They may also attach an improvement notice to your council tax band for the main property. 

You need to change things that cannot easily be changed back, like removing plumbing and capping electrics etc. in addition to appliances. It could remain as a utility room with a sink, and keep the bathroom. You just need to enough that it’s longer a kitchen and cannot be simply converted back.
Use a specialist broker to find a lender. I think Nationwide may lend on properties with an annexe.

An annex does not need a bathroom, it only needs "washing facilities" (kitchen sink will suffice) and a WC. The VOA will not attach an improvement marker, as the band for the main house will either be increased or remain as it is.I dealt with many annex situations during my time in the VOA and they were always a pain.

I own a house with an outbuilding in Wales. I converted the outbuilding into an annexe. As the change was made after I purchased it, an improvement marker was added to the main house council tax band. The band for the main house did not change. This marker will only affect the next owner if I sell the property. Dealing with the VOA was straightforward. To change back to an outbuilding I would just need to permanently remove the kitchen/ cooking/ fridge and power/ gas supply to them etc. Your experience may be different.

This is a completely different scenario!

In your case, the annex was in effect an "extension" to the house, therefore it would have an improvement marker. Possibly Welsh CT legislation is different, but in England, if the annex is self contained it would have its own CT band. 

The OP's situation is that there is already a band on the annex, so if it is merged, the band on the main house may increase. If it doesn't then that band will remain even if the house is sold, there is no improvement indicator

It’s exactly the same scenario. My annexe was given its own council tax band and at the same time an improvement marker was placed on the main house.

This doesn't make sense.

Unless you also did work on the main house there would be no need for an improvement marker. I spent 35 yrs in the VOA, the last 12 dealing with CT appeals and overseeing banding. If an annex was created it was given its own band, there was never an improvement indicator placed on the main house.

Ok, well I’m you are mistaken in this instance. No work was carried out on the main house and an improvement indicator was applied.

I'm not mistaken, if no work was carried out there was no need for an improvement indicator. The clue is in the words "improvement indicator", if there is no improvement, there is no need for an indicator. It simply advises that work has been carried out which is not currently reflected in the CT band. You have done no improvements, so the CT band currently reflects everything that is there. 

In the real world it would make little difference. Only if you wanted to sell the house and a prospective purchaser saw the letter I against the VL entry, might it cause a small problem, but you could easily convince them no improvements had been carried out.  

You stated incorrectly that no improvement marker was added to my house, in this you were indeed mistaken.

The obvious improvement is that it has changed from being a house with a derelict outbuilding in the garden to being a house with a fully refurbished self contained annexe in the garden. This is likely to increase the value of the house, in addition to increasing the value of the outbuilding resulting in an improvement marker. As you say, it doesn’t affect me at the moment as the CT may only  rise for the next owner.
I think this is possibly not very relevant to the original question though.

I said there was no need for an improvement indicator.

You said "My annexe was given its own council tax band" thus as the annex has its own CT band, the band of the main house cannot be increased on account of the annex. Thus no improvements carried out which would warrant a possible CT band increase following a sale. If the annex did not have its own CT band then an improvement indicator would be justified.

Well, as I said originally, your experience may be different. This is what they did, the Annexe was rated at band A and an improvement marker was added to the main house. It will come as no surprise to anybody that there are differences, inconsistencies or mistakes in the rules or the application of the rules by different people or different local authorities.

lincroft1710

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

To be classed as an annexe it has to have its own kitchen and bathroom. Permanently removing either of these and sending evidence to the VOA should be sufficient. They may come and inspect. They may also attach an improvement notice to your council tax band for the main property. 

You need to change things that cannot easily be changed back, like removing plumbing and capping electrics etc. in addition to appliances. It could remain as a utility room with a sink, and keep the bathroom. You just need to enough that it’s longer a kitchen and cannot be simply converted back.
Use a specialist broker to find a lender. I think Nationwide may lend on properties with an annexe.

An annex does not need a bathroom, it only needs "washing facilities" (kitchen sink will suffice) and a WC. The VOA will not attach an improvement marker, as the band for the main house will either be increased or remain as it is.I dealt with many annex situations during my time in the VOA and they were always a pain.

I own a house with an outbuilding in Wales. I converted the outbuilding into an annexe. As the change was made after I purchased it, an improvement marker was added to the main house council tax band. The band for the main house did not change. This marker will only affect the next owner if I sell the property. Dealing with the VOA was straightforward. To change back to an outbuilding I would just need to permanently remove the kitchen/ cooking/ fridge and power/ gas supply to them etc. Your experience may be different.

This is a completely different scenario!

In your case, the annex was in effect an "extension" to the house, therefore it would have an improvement marker. Possibly Welsh CT legislation is different, but in England, if the annex is self contained it would have its own CT band. 

The OP's situation is that there is already a band on the annex, so if it is merged, the band on the main house may increase. If it doesn't then that band will remain even if the house is sold, there is no improvement indicator

It’s exactly the same scenario. My annexe was given its own council tax band and at the same time an improvement marker was placed on the main house.

This doesn't make sense.

Unless you also did work on the main house there would be no need for an improvement marker. I spent 35 yrs in the VOA, the last 12 dealing with CT appeals and overseeing banding. If an annex was created it was given its own band, there was never an improvement indicator placed on the main house.

Ok, well I’m you are mistaken in this instance. No work was carried out on the main house and an improvement indicator was applied.

I'm not mistaken, if no work was carried out there was no need for an improvement indicator. The clue is in the words "improvement indicator", if there is no improvement, there is no need for an indicator. It simply advises that work has been carried out which is not currently reflected in the CT band. You have done no improvements, so the CT band currently reflects everything that is there. 

In the real world it would make little difference. Only if you wanted to sell the house and a prospective purchaser saw the letter I against the VL entry, might it cause a small problem, but you could easily convince them no improvements had been carried out.  

You stated incorrectly that no improvement marker was added to my house, in this you were indeed mistaken.

The obvious improvement is that it has changed from being a house with a derelict outbuilding in the garden to being a house with a fully refurbished self contained annexe in the garden. This is likely to increase the value of the house, in addition to increasing the value of the outbuilding resulting in an improvement marker. As you say, it doesn’t affect me at the moment as the CT may only  rise for the next owner.
I think this is possibly not very relevant to the original question though.

I said there was no need for an improvement indicator.

You said "My annexe was given its own council tax band" thus as the annex has its own CT band, the band of the main house cannot be increased on account of the annex. Thus no improvements carried out which would warrant a possible CT band increase following a sale. If the annex did not have its own CT band then an improvement indicator would be justified.

Well, as I said originally, your experience may be different. This is what they did, the Annexe was rated at band A and an improvement marker was added to the main house. It will come as no surprise to anybody that there are differences, inconsistencies or mistakes in the rules or the application of the rules by different people or different local authorities.

Your experience is the one that is different. If the facts are as you have documented then it was a mistake. 

Bronze

Just for future reference if anyone finds this thread on a search needing similar advice.
We had decided to just pay the two council taxes but now our solicitor has just started looking into something we hadn’t even heard of and that’s multiple dwelling relief claim. It’s a reduction of stamp duty apparently. Not sure if we’ll get it but may be useful for others to know about. 

pinkteapot

Thanks for updating OP.  

I looked into this too when we were considering a house with an internal annex. Everything I read suggested that it's easy to get a second CT band added when you create an annex, but it's a lot harder to get it removed when you remove one. As others have said, the kitchen/bathroom needs to be removed so completely that they don't think you'll reinstate it, so it's not just a case of taking things out and capping pipes in the room! 

Our conclusion was that you should do the work to make the annex part of the house again if that's how you *want* the house to be and how it will suit you best, but don't do it in order to reduce your CT liability as there's no guarantee of that happening. 

lincroft1710

pinkteapot said: 

 As others have said, the kitchen/bathroom needs to be removed so completely that they don't think you'll reinstate it, so it's not just a case of taking things out and capping pipes in the room! 

 

When I was in the VOA, the pipes supplying water to the sink should be capped and plastered over, any gas supply to a cooker should be capped and any electric cooker point socket removed and covered with a blanking plate. Rules or guidelines may have changed over the years or you may have encountered a hardline VOA.

Dave_Cat

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

To be classed as an annexe it has to have its own kitchen and bathroom. Permanently removing either of these and sending evidence to the VOA should be sufficient. They may come and inspect. They may also attach an improvement notice to your council tax band for the main property. 

You need to change things that cannot easily be changed back, like removing plumbing and capping electrics etc. in addition to appliances. It could remain as a utility room with a sink, and keep the bathroom. You just need to enough that it’s longer a kitchen and cannot be simply converted back.
Use a specialist broker to find a lender. I think Nationwide may lend on properties with an annexe.

We purchased a property in 2019 and in late November received a letter from the VOA saying they were looking at separately banding an extension/annexe that was built in 2007!!! The property had also been sold previously in 2015 ish.

Two days later we received another letter to say it had been!

The original submitted plans named it as "A two storey family annexe" and the original plans did have a kitchen, bathroom, bedrooms etc. However, the plans were amended prior to Planning Permisson being granted and the kitchen was removed but the name ("A two storey family annexe") was not altered and it was on these amended plans that permission was then granted.

In addition, the PP contains a condition stating that:

The development shall only be used/occupied for purposes incidental to the residential use of the dwelling currently known as XXXXXXX

Reason:  An additional separate unit of accommodation would not be permitted in this location because a separate unit of accommodation would require further consideration by the Local Planning Authority, in accordance with yyyy Local Plan Policy.

The previous owners did install a kitchenette area but we have since removed any trace of a kitchen - as per the original, amend plans. There is no gas to the property and we have also removed all the cooker wiring and cooker connection box.

There is no means by which to independently control heating/hot water and the extemnsion can be accessed internally both upstairs and downstairs. There is no restriction to movement between the two pieces.

My questions is therefore, do we have a case to have the annexe separate banding removed?

lincroft1710

Dave_Cat said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

To be classed as an annexe it has to have its own kitchen and bathroom. Permanently removing either of these and sending evidence to the VOA should be sufficient. They may come and inspect. They may also attach an improvement notice to your council tax band for the main property. 

You need to change things that cannot easily be changed back, like removing plumbing and capping electrics etc. in addition to appliances. It could remain as a utility room with a sink, and keep the bathroom. You just need to enough that it’s longer a kitchen and cannot be simply converted back.
Use a specialist broker to find a lender. I think Nationwide may lend on properties with an annexe.

We purchased a property in 2019 and in late November received a letter from the VOA saying they were looking at separately banding an extension/annexe that was built in 2007!!! The property had also been sold previously in 2015 ish.

Two days later we received another letter to say it had been!

The original submitted plans named it as "A two storey family annexe" and the original plans did have a kitchen, bathroom, bedrooms etc. However, the plans were amended prior to Planning Permisson being granted and the kitchen was removed but the name ("A two storey family annexe") was not altered and it was on these amended plans that permission was then granted.

In addition, the PP contains a condition stating that:

The development shall only be used/occupied for purposes incidental to the residential use of the dwelling currently known as XXXXXXX

Reason:  An additional separate unit of accommodation would not be permitted in this location because a separate unit of accommodation would require further consideration by the Local Planning Authority, in accordance with yyyy Local Plan Policy.

The previous owners did install a kitchenette area but we have since removed any trace of a kitchen - as per the original, amend plans. There is no gas to the property and we have also removed all the cooker wiring and cooker connection box.

There is no means by which to independently control heating/hot water and the extemnsion can be accessed internally both upstairs and downstairs. There is no restriction to movement between the two pieces.

My questions is therefore, do we have a case to have the annexe separate banding removed?

Yes the separate banding could probably be removed, but there is a possibility the band of the main house may be increased.