Reincorporating an annexe

Thunderbolts

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

To be classed as an annexe it has to have its own kitchen and bathroom. Permanently removing either of these and sending evidence to the VOA should be sufficient. They may come and inspect. They may also attach an improvement notice to your council tax band for the main property. 

You need to change things that cannot easily be changed back, like removing plumbing and capping electrics etc. in addition to appliances. It could remain as a utility room with a sink, and keep the bathroom. You just need to enough that it’s longer a kitchen and cannot be simply converted back.
Use a specialist broker to find a lender. I think Nationwide may lend on properties with an annexe.

An annex does not need a bathroom, it only needs "washing facilities" (kitchen sink will suffice) and a WC. The VOA will not attach an improvement marker, as the band for the main house will either be increased or remain as it is.I dealt with many annex situations during my time in the VOA and they were always a pain.

I own a house with an outbuilding in Wales. I converted the outbuilding into an annexe. As the change was made after I purchased it, an improvement marker was added to the main house council tax band. The band for the main house did not change. This marker will only affect the next owner if I sell the property. Dealing with the VOA was straightforward. To change back to an outbuilding I would just need to permanently remove the kitchen/ cooking/ fridge and power/ gas supply to them etc. Your experience may be different.

This is a completely different scenario!

In your case, the annex was in effect an "extension" to the house, therefore it would have an improvement marker. Possibly Welsh CT legislation is different, but in England, if the annex is self contained it would have its own CT band. 

The OP's situation is that there is already a band on the annex, so if it is merged, the band on the main house may increase. If it doesn't then that band will remain even if the house is sold, there is no improvement indicator

It’s exactly the same scenario. My annexe was given its own council tax band and at the same time an improvement marker was placed on the main house.

This doesn't make sense.

Unless you also did work on the main house there would be no need for an improvement marker. I spent 35 yrs in the VOA, the last 12 dealing with CT appeals and overseeing banding. If an annex was created it was given its own band, there was never an improvement indicator placed on the main house.

Ok, well I’m you are mistaken in this instance. No work was carried out on the main house and an improvement indicator was applied.

Bronze

Just to clear a couple of things up. 

The finding out if it was originally all one was for our benefit. It means what we think was a door probably was and on a practical note means that it’s easier to knock back through. But it would also show that it can be part of the main house and wasn’t designed to be an annexe originally.

We understand the main house council tax would probably go up. We don’t have a problem with that. We just suspect it wouldn’t go up as much as the extra seperate council tax is.  

Re removing things from the kitchen, how much would have to go? Taking plumbing out would mean no sink, I would have liked to use it as a laundry but if necessary...
Would we really have to remove the bathroom too? It would mean a 5 bed house had one bathroom upstairs. And with 3 teens and one preteen...

From the outside, the annexe looks like part of the main house. Not an outbuilding or add on (though a well done old extension)

Bronze

Ah. I’ve finally found a decent explanation on google as to what improvement markers are. Does that mean they’re not likely to allow us to incorporate the annexe as they’ll lose money with no ct coming from the annexe and no increase in the main house ct until we move (and this is to be our long term home).
Annoying as I would be happy to pay an increase but couldn’t really afford the extra separate ct. 

Thunderbolts

Bronze said:

Just to clear a couple of things up. 

The finding out if it was originally all one was for our benefit. It means what we think was a door probably was and on a practical note means that it’s easier to knock back through. But it would also show that it can be part of the main house and wasn’t designed to be an annexe originally.

We understand the main house council tax would probably go up. We don’t have a problem with that. We just suspect it wouldn’t go up as much as the extra seperate council tax is.  

Re removing things from the kitchen, how much would have to go? Taking plumbing out would mean no sink, I would have liked to use it as a laundry but if necessary...
Would we really have to remove the bathroom too? It would mean a 5 bed house had one bathroom upstairs. And with 3 teens and one preteen...

From the outside, the annexe looks like part of the main house. Not an outbuilding or add on (though a well done old extension)

No, you would just need to remove the kitchen/ cooking facilities. Keep the bathroom. The kitchen needs to be permanently removed, so you have to do just enough to convince them that you are not just going to change it straight back. You could probably keep the Kitchen sink and call it a utility room. They are unlikely to have a problem with you changing it.

macman

Interpretation of this seems very haphazard. A friend of mine did this after her mother died last year. The kitchenette had a cooker and a sink. She removed both, plus the taps. Resubmitted photographic evidence to the VO, as obviously they're not doing site visits at present. Waited a couple of months to be told that, because the worktops and cupboards were still in place, it remained a 'food preparation area' and so they would not merge the two properties back into one for CT purposes. 
This of course completely contradicted what she had been told previously...

lincroft1710

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

lincroft1710 said:

Thunderbolts said:

To be classed as an annexe it has to have its own kitchen and bathroom. Permanently removing either of these and sending evidence to the VOA should be sufficient. They may come and inspect. They may also attach an improvement notice to your council tax band for the main property. 

You need to change things that cannot easily be changed back, like removing plumbing and capping electrics etc. in addition to appliances. It could remain as a utility room with a sink, and keep the bathroom. You just need to enough that it’s longer a kitchen and cannot be simply converted back.
Use a specialist broker to find a lender. I think Nationwide may lend on properties with an annexe.

An annex does not need a bathroom, it only needs "washing facilities" (kitchen sink will suffice) and a WC. The VOA will not attach an improvement marker, as the band for the main house will either be increased or remain as it is.I dealt with many annex situations during my time in the VOA and they were always a pain.

I own a house with an outbuilding in Wales. I converted the outbuilding into an annexe. As the change was made after I purchased it, an improvement marker was added to the main house council tax band. The band for the main house did not change. This marker will only affect the next owner if I sell the property. Dealing with the VOA was straightforward. To change back to an outbuilding I would just need to permanently remove the kitchen/ cooking/ fridge and power/ gas supply to them etc. Your experience may be different.

This is a completely different scenario!

In your case, the annex was in effect an "extension" to the house, therefore it would have an improvement marker. Possibly Welsh CT legislation is different, but in England, if the annex is self contained it would have its own CT band. 

The OP's situation is that there is already a band on the annex, so if it is merged, the band on the main house may increase. If it doesn't then that band will remain even if the house is sold, there is no improvement indicator

It’s exactly the same scenario. My annexe was given its own council tax band and at the same time an improvement marker was placed on the main house.

This doesn't make sense.

Unless you also did work on the main house there would be no need for an improvement marker. I spent 35 yrs in the VOA, the last 12 dealing with CT appeals and overseeing banding. If an annex was created it was given its own band, there was never an improvement indicator placed on the main house.

Ok, well I’m you are mistaken in this instance. No work was carried out on the main house and an improvement indicator was applied.

I'm not mistaken, if no work was carried out there was no need for an improvement indicator. The clue is in the words "improvement indicator", if there is no improvement, there is no need for an indicator. It simply advises that work has been carried out which is not currently reflected in the CT band. You have done no improvements, so the CT band currently reflects everything that is there. 

In the real world it would make little difference. Only if you wanted to sell the house and a prospective purchaser saw the letter I against the VL entry, might it cause a small problem, but you could easily convince them no improvements had been carried out.  

lincroft1710

Bronze said:

Ah. I’ve finally found a decent explanation on google as to what improvement markers are. Does that mean they’re not likely to allow us to incorporate the annexe as they’ll lose money with no ct coming from the annexe and no increase in the main house ct until we move (and this is to be our long term home).
Annoying as I would be happy to pay an increase but couldn’t really afford the extra separate ct. 

A planning decision should not be influenced by possible loss of CT revenue, but should be made in accordance with local policy regarding size, type, number of dwellings needed or permitted and environmental factors. See if you can have an informal chat with the planning authority

Bronze

lincroft1710 said:

A planning decision should not be influenced by possible loss of CT revenue, but should be made in accordance with local policy regarding size, type, number of dwellings needed or permitted and environmental factors. See if you can have an informal chat with the planning authority

Planning? Why would it need planning? 

I’m now thinking this is going to be an impossibility for us. We would need the answers before we bought otherwise it’s useless to us. 

lincroft1710

macman said:

Interpretation of this seems very haphazard. A friend of mine did this after her mother died last year. The kitchenette had a cooker and a sink. She removed both, plus the taps. Resubmitted photographic evidence to the VO, as obviously they're not doing site visits at present. Waited a couple of months to be told that, because the worktops and cupboards were still in place, it remained a 'food preparation area' and so they would not merge the two properties back into one for CT purposes. 
This of course completely contradicted what she had been told previously...

Unless VOA policy has changed or a High Court decision has ruled that more work needs to be done than previously, I consider the VOA stance is somewhat harsh. I presume that the water supply to the taps was capped, and if electric the cooker point was fitted with a blanking plate, or if gas capped off. 

It could also be that the person(s) dealing with this at the VOA is suspicious that the items removed would be replaced once the CT band for the annex had been removed.


As it is a merger of 2 dwellings, the 6 month time limit does not apply, so your friend can formally appeal the VOA decision and have the matter referred to the independent Valuation Tribunal

lincroft1710

Bronze said:

lincroft1710 said:

A planning decision should not be influenced by possible loss of CT revenue, but should be made in accordance with local policy regarding size, type, number of dwellings needed or permitted and environmental factors. See if you can have an informal chat with the planning authority

Planning? Why would it need planning? 

I’m now thinking this is going to be an impossibility for us. We would need the answers before we bought otherwise it’s useless to us. 

Because you said "Does that mean they’re not likely to allow us to incorporate the annexe as they’ll lose money with no ct coming from the annexe and no increase in the main house ct until we move" and the only people who can say that the annex can't be merged are the people who gave permission for the construction/conversion in the first place - the planning authority.

To clarify another point you raise, if you did merge the annex with the main house, the band of the main house would either increase at the time you merge or would remain the same if the current band was considered sufficient. The increase is not put on hold until the property is sold.