Bitcoin

[Deleted User]

coyrls said:

You asked me to elaborate what I didn't like about your wording and I did.  It's a bit rich to then complain that I had already said that I didn't like your wording.  I am not going to get drawn into trying to give an alternative explanation of bitcoin.

I would add that my point is not an opinion, it is a fact that building on an existing protocol and a soft or hard fork in software deveopment are two completely different things.

Bitcoin is being compared to, or named as "protocol" because it makes sense, especially to new people. Let's stop arguing about wording, everybody reading this topic so far will get the point.

coyrls

The protocol on which Bitcoin has been built is the blockchain protocol.  Other applications can be built using the blockchain protocol but they are not built on Bitcoin, they are built on the blockchain protocol.

Bravepants

pioruns said:

Bravepants said:

pioruns said:

Bravepants said:

pioruns said:

Wrong again, last Bitcoins will be mined in year 2140, that's 120 years from now.

Oh sorry, yes I was wrong. I meant 120 years of volatility.

What is the final price of pound? When will it stabilize, then?

Pound marketcap and it's widespread, global usage is orders of magnitude bigger than of Bitcoin, and yet...

it's up 1.18% today to Euro, and 0.76% up to Dollar. Why is it so volatile?
Bitcoin is down 1.40% today. What's so different about it?

Maybe you just don't understand how currencies work?

And lastly... Why you assume that end of new Bitcoins minting will stop volatility??

New pounds are being "minted" at all time, we all it feel with ever diminishing purchasing power. New Bitcoins are being minted too, the only difference is that Bitcoin inflation rate is predetermined. Right now it's 1.80% per annum and no force on earth can change it. No government will print extra Bitcoins to cover their spending.

Over the last 12 months Bitcoin has varied in value from just over £10,000 to just below £4000, an over 100% change. Sure the GBP varied by perhaps 10 to 15% over the same period, BUT a 10% change in the value of GBP is not the same magnitude as a 10% change in Bitcoin. Constantly attacking my level of knowledge is not going to win your own argument. Yes you are very knowledgeable about the theory of Bitcoin, but I think you have a lot to learn about practicalities.

I don't have any argument, in am not convincing anyone, just correcting some myths. I am not trying to sell you Bitcoins so I can make millions of profit lol.

And it was you who said that you don't care and never will, I treat you as you deserve.

Lastly, regarding volatility - volatility has historically been decreasing with bigger marketcap. Simply because it requires more billions and billions to move the market. As it grows, volatility will diminish, but never stop - just like with normal currencies, regardless of fact that bitcoin is still being minted or not, which you failed to understand, when minting will end, price will still be volatile simply because the currency to which you comparing it to, remains volatile.

OK, but can you guarantee that if I buy £1000 of Bitcoin tonight it won't be worth only £900 tomorrow morning?

[Deleted User]

Bravepants said:

pioruns said:

Bravepants said:

pioruns said:

Bravepants said:

pioruns said:

Wrong again, last Bitcoins will be mined in year 2140, that's 120 years from now.

Oh sorry, yes I was wrong. I meant 120 years of volatility.

What is the final price of pound? When will it stabilize, then?

Pound marketcap and it's widespread, global usage is orders of magnitude bigger than of Bitcoin, and yet...

it's up 1.18% today to Euro, and 0.76% up to Dollar. Why is it so volatile?
Bitcoin is down 1.40% today. What's so different about it?

Maybe you just don't understand how currencies work?

And lastly... Why you assume that end of new Bitcoins minting will stop volatility??

New pounds are being "minted" at all time, we all it feel with ever diminishing purchasing power. New Bitcoins are being minted too, the only difference is that Bitcoin inflation rate is predetermined. Right now it's 1.80% per annum and no force on earth can change it. No government will print extra Bitcoins to cover their spending.

Over the last 12 months Bitcoin has varied in value from just over £10,000 to just below £4000, an over 100% change. Sure the GBP varied by perhaps 10 to 15% over the same period, BUT a 10% change in the value of GBP is not the same magnitude as a 10% change in Bitcoin. Constantly attacking my level of knowledge is not going to win your own argument. Yes you are very knowledgeable about the theory of Bitcoin, but I think you have a lot to learn about practicalities.

I don't have any argument, in am not convincing anyone, just correcting some myths. I am not trying to sell you Bitcoins so I can make millions of profit lol.

And it was you who said that you don't care and never will, I treat you as you deserve.

Lastly, regarding volatility - volatility has historically been decreasing with bigger marketcap. Simply because it requires more billions and billions to move the market. As it grows, volatility will diminish, but never stop - just like with normal currencies, regardless of fact that bitcoin is still being minted or not, which you failed to understand, when minting will end, price will still be volatile simply because the currency to which you comparing it to, remains volatile.

OK, but can you guarantee that if I buy £1000 of Bitcoin tonight it won't be worth only £900 tomorrow morning?

Any volatile investment can jump up or down 10% next day. Difference is, Bitcoin is the fundamentally deflationary (to fiats) and it's the best shot at preserving our wealth that we have, sitting right next to gold (which I am not fan of, but Bitcoin and gold share many similarities).

In fact, Bitcoin arguably is the best "currency" investment in last 1200 years: https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-has-been-the-best-currency-investment-for-over-1-200-years

On the other side, dollar has lost over 96% of its value in 228 years since it's creation. Almost all of it's purchasing power.

If you are scared that your Bitcoins will be worth 10% less next morning, use Dollar Cost Averaging strategy (DCA). Check how that would have been for you historically:

https://dcabtc.com/

And even if not for investment purposes, it's useful as permissionless & trustless value transaction system, Bitcoin doesn't care if you made profit or loss on your speculation, it just works.

[Deleted User]

coyrls said:

The protocol on which Bitcoin has been built is the blockchain protocol.  Other applications can be built using the blockchain protocol but they are not built on Bitcoin, they are built on the blockchain protocol.

Agree. Blockchain is a integral part of Bitcoin, and can't work without it, because it is blockchain which incentivizes block miners to play by the consensus rules (they not being rewarded with newly minted currency if they don't).

It all comes back to "protocol" comparison. Everything can be built on Internet, but you can't build your own Internet (at least not successfully and at scale, although Bitcoin code, and it's blockchain is all free & open source, everybody can create their own and thousands have tried, with varying results). And to add to laugh, it's called network effect And Bitcoin has it.

BananaRepublic

pioruns said:

Bravepants said:

pioruns said:

Bravepants said:

pioruns said:

Bravepants said:

pioruns said:

Wrong again, last Bitcoins will be mined in year 2140, that's 120 years from now.

Oh sorry, yes I was wrong. I meant 120 years of volatility.

What is the final price of pound? When will it stabilize, then?

Pound marketcap and it's widespread, global usage is orders of magnitude bigger than of Bitcoin, and yet...

it's up 1.18% today to Euro, and 0.76% up to Dollar. Why is it so volatile?
Bitcoin is down 1.40% today. What's so different about it?

Maybe you just don't understand how currencies work?

And lastly... Why you assume that end of new Bitcoins minting will stop volatility??

New pounds are being "minted" at all time, we all it feel with ever diminishing purchasing power. New Bitcoins are being minted too, the only difference is that Bitcoin inflation rate is predetermined. Right now it's 1.80% per annum and no force on earth can change it. No government will print extra Bitcoins to cover their spending.

Over the last 12 months Bitcoin has varied in value from just over £10,000 to just below £4000, an over 100% change. Sure the GBP varied by perhaps 10 to 15% over the same period, BUT a 10% change in the value of GBP is not the same magnitude as a 10% change in Bitcoin. Constantly attacking my level of knowledge is not going to win your own argument. Yes you are very knowledgeable about the theory of Bitcoin, but I think you have a lot to learn about practicalities.

I don't have any argument, in am not convincing anyone, just correcting some myths. I am not trying to sell you Bitcoins so I can make millions of profit lol.

And it was you who said that you don't care and never will, I treat you as you deserve.

Lastly, regarding volatility - volatility has historically been decreasing with bigger marketcap. Simply because it requires more billions and billions to move the market. As it grows, volatility will diminish, but never stop - just like with normal currencies, regardless of fact that bitcoin is still being minted or not, which you failed to understand, when minting will end, price will still be volatile simply because the currency to which you comparing it to, remains volatile.

OK, but can you guarantee that if I buy £1000 of Bitcoin tonight it won't be worth only £900 tomorrow morning?

Any volatile investment can jump up or down 10% next day. Difference is, Bitcoin is the fundamentally deflationary (to fiats) and it's the best shot at preserving our wealth that we have, sitting right next to gold (which I am not fan of, but Bitcoin and gold share many similarities).

In fact, Bitcoin arguably is the best "currency" investment in last 1200 years: https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-has-been-the-best-currency-investment-for-over-1-200-years

On the other side, dollar has lost over 96% of its value in 228 years since it's creation. Almost all of it's purchasing power.

If you are scared that your Bitcoins will be worth 10% less next morning, use Dollar Cost Averaging strategy (DCA). Check how that would have been for you historically:

https://dcabtc.com/

And even if not for investment purposes, it's useful as permissionless & trustless value transaction system, Bitcoin doesn't care if you made profit or loss on your speculation, it just works.

Your posts read like a marketing brochure for Bitcoin. Bitcoin is our best shot at preserving our wealth? For goodness sake, that is absurd. It has no intrinsic value other than the value attributed to it by speculators ie greed. It is one of the most inefficient currencies imaginable. And it is so volatile as to be worthless in the real world eg paying salaries, buying a house etc..

I note you didn’t dispute my statement that Bitcoin is massively inefficient. 

coyrls

Yes, you've lost me again but at this point I will retire.

Bravepants

There is nothing affecting the price of Bitcoin apart from whether speculators are generally buying or generally selling at any particular time - it's price varies because of supply and demand and nothing more. There is no "Bitcoinland" with a central bank that implements monetary policy that ultimately governs interest rates, that control the inflation of prices of goods and services offered by the economy of Bitcoinland and ultimately therefore the value of the currency on some "foreign" exchange - where you can exchange Bitcoin for fiat or other crypto for example.

Bitcoin's value varies simply because of supply and demand. Speculators in Bitcoin see the price is what they deem is "low" at a particular time, so they buy. The price therefore rises as demand increases. At some point the price rises to a level where speculators decide to take profit and they start selling, there is therefore an increase in supply of, and therefore a decrease in demand for Bitcoin, and the price drops. As the price drops more people sell so as not to lose money, or take profit before further falls. The price continues to fall until speculators again deem the price "low" and they start to buy...and so it goes on and on and on...up and down moving between various levels, long term or short term, as speculators come and go. There is no practical use for Bitcoin apart from this ongoing cycle of speculation...but also because of this ongoing cycle of speculation.

My original involvement in this thread was an (admittedly half-hearted) attempt to try to understand the simple question of when we will see the price stabilize so that it is actually useful. I have not read anything to convince me that we will see any useful stability in the price of Bitcoin, or any other crypto for that matter.  

[Deleted User]

Bravepants said:

There is nothing affecting the price of Bitcoin apart from whether speculators are generally buying or generally selling at any particular time - it's price varies because of supply and demand and nothing more. There is no "Bitcoinland" with a central bank that implements monetary policy that ultimately governs interest rates, that control the inflation of prices of goods and services offered by the economy of Bitcoinland and ultimately therefore the value of the currency on some "foreign" exchange - where you can exchange Bitcoin for fiat or other crypto for example.

Bitcoin's value varies simply because of supply and demand. Speculators in Bitcoin see the price is what they deem is "low" at a particular time, so they buy. The price therefore rises as demand increases. At some point the price rises to a level where speculators decide to take profit and they start selling, there is therefore an increase in supply of, and therefore a decrease in demand for Bitcoin, and the price drops. As the price drops more people sell so as not to lose money, or take profit before further falls. The price continues to fall until speculators again deem the price "low" and they start to buy...and so it goes on and on and on...up and down moving between various levels, long term or short term, as speculators come and go. There is no practical use for Bitcoin apart from this ongoing cycle of speculation...but also because of this ongoing cycle of speculation.

My original involvement in this thread was an (admittedly half-hearted) attempt to try to understand the simple question of when we will see the price stabilize so that it is actually useful. I have not read anything to convince me that we will see any useful stability in the price of Bitcoin, or any other crypto for that matter.  

First you asked when a currency have "final price" and when currency's price achieve "stability" over other currencies and now you become cryptocurrency and monetary policy expert? You admitted your ignorance, you even asked if I'd guarantee your Bitcoin "investment"? Excuse me but further discussion with you is pointless.

Have fun.

[Deleted User]

BananaRepublic said:

pioruns said:

Bravepants said:

pioruns said:

Bravepants said:

pioruns said:

Bravepants said:

pioruns said:

Wrong again, last Bitcoins will be mined in year 2140, that's 120 years from now.

Oh sorry, yes I was wrong. I meant 120 years of volatility.

What is the final price of pound? When will it stabilize, then?

Pound marketcap and it's widespread, global usage is orders of magnitude bigger than of Bitcoin, and yet...

it's up 1.18% today to Euro, and 0.76% up to Dollar. Why is it so volatile?
Bitcoin is down 1.40% today. What's so different about it?

Maybe you just don't understand how currencies work?

And lastly... Why you assume that end of new Bitcoins minting will stop volatility??

New pounds are being "minted" at all time, we all it feel with ever diminishing purchasing power. New Bitcoins are being minted too, the only difference is that Bitcoin inflation rate is predetermined. Right now it's 1.80% per annum and no force on earth can change it. No government will print extra Bitcoins to cover their spending.

Over the last 12 months Bitcoin has varied in value from just over £10,000 to just below £4000, an over 100% change. Sure the GBP varied by perhaps 10 to 15% over the same period, BUT a 10% change in the value of GBP is not the same magnitude as a 10% change in Bitcoin. Constantly attacking my level of knowledge is not going to win your own argument. Yes you are very knowledgeable about the theory of Bitcoin, but I think you have a lot to learn about practicalities.

I don't have any argument, in am not convincing anyone, just correcting some myths. I am not trying to sell you Bitcoins so I can make millions of profit lol.

And it was you who said that you don't care and never will, I treat you as you deserve.

Lastly, regarding volatility - volatility has historically been decreasing with bigger marketcap. Simply because it requires more billions and billions to move the market. As it grows, volatility will diminish, but never stop - just like with normal currencies, regardless of fact that bitcoin is still being minted or not, which you failed to understand, when minting will end, price will still be volatile simply because the currency to which you comparing it to, remains volatile.

OK, but can you guarantee that if I buy £1000 of Bitcoin tonight it won't be worth only £900 tomorrow morning?

Any volatile investment can jump up or down 10% next day. Difference is, Bitcoin is the fundamentally deflationary (to fiats) and it's the best shot at preserving our wealth that we have, sitting right next to gold (which I am not fan of, but Bitcoin and gold share many similarities).

In fact, Bitcoin arguably is the best "currency" investment in last 1200 years: https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-has-been-the-best-currency-investment-for-over-1-200-years

On the other side, dollar has lost over 96% of its value in 228 years since it's creation. Almost all of it's purchasing power.

If you are scared that your Bitcoins will be worth 10% less next morning, use Dollar Cost Averaging strategy (DCA). Check how that would have been for you historically:

https://dcabtc.com/

And even if not for investment purposes, it's useful as permissionless & trustless value transaction system, Bitcoin doesn't care if you made profit or loss on your speculation, it just works.

Your posts read like a marketing brochure for Bitcoin. Bitcoin is our best shot at preserving our wealth? For goodness sake, that is absurd. It has no intrinsic value other than the value attributed to it by speculators ie greed. It is one of the most inefficient currencies imaginable. And it is so volatile as to be worthless in the real world eg paying salaries, buying a house etc..

I note you didn’t dispute my statement that Bitcoin is massively inefficient. 

Bitcoin is massively inefficient in what? How you measure efficiency or usability of currency or store-of-value asset? Is gold efficient?

I am marketing for Bitcoin? I simply told you all what it is today and what it can become. It certainly have the characteristics, being deflationary, immutable and unbendable to governments. Will it succeed? Who knows. If is does, will people denying it today regret doing it? Certainly.

People smarter than me and you are not wasting their time:

https://dailyhodl.com/2020/06/05/financial-titan-fidelity-reveals-bitcoin-btc-and-cryptocurrency-adoption-among-institutional-investors-on-the-rise/

https://cointelegraph.com/news/generational-shift-to-open-28-trillion-retirement-market-to-crypto

Let's revisit in few years time. We'll see, I will retire from this thread, rest of you have fun