Totally shafted by HMRC and the SEISS

deliclare

Well we won't be getting a penny.
My husband's 18-19 tax return was £300 over the threshold. Utter rubbish that they say they will look at the other 2 tax years and take an average from the last 3  - they don't - even though the 2 previous tax years earned him £30k. 

They only go by the 18-19 tax return. Utterly pointless promises made by the government. No surprise there then. 

Let's all get back to work. Best of luck to the self employed- even if the self employed get any more 'support' (they are thinking of not paying out again),  they are revising the threshold down to 30k for the next payment. Good luck folks. 

calcotti

deliclare said:

Well we won't be getting a penny.
My husband's 18-19 tax return was £300 over the threshold. Utter rubbish that they say they will look at the other 2 tax years and take an average from the last 3  - they don't - even though the 2 previous tax years earned him £30k. 

They only go by the 18-19 tax return. Utterly pointless promises made by the government. No surprise there then. 

No they don't. If you fail on the 2018-19 test they will then duo the average of three years test. If you think HMRC have done it wrong then take it up with them.

deliclare said:

..,  they are revising the threshold down to 30k for the next payment. Good luck folks. 

Where have you got that from?

Jeremy535897

That is wrong. The legislation is clear. Based on what you have said, your husband is eligible by meeting Condition B (I assume he is not within the loan charge):
5.1 The profits condition is met if-  (a) where the person is not subject to the loan charge, the person meets condition A, B or C, or
(b) where the person is subject to the loan charge, the person meets condition D or E.
5.2 Condition A is met if-
(a) the person’s trading profits of the tax year 2018-19 were £50,000 or less but were more than nil, and
(b) those profits are equal to or more than the person’s relevant income in that tax year.
5.3 Condition B is met if-
(a) the person carried on a trade in the tax years 2016-17, 2017-18 and 2018-19,
(b) the average amount of the person’s trading profits of those tax years was £50,000 or less but was more than nil, and
(c) the sum of those profits is equal to or more than the sum of the person’s relevant income for those tax years.
5.4 Condition C is met if-
(a) the person carried on a trade in the tax years 2017-18 and 2018-19 but did not carry on a trade in the tax year 2016-17,
(b) the average amount of the person’s trading profits of the tax years 2017-18 and 2018-19 was £50,000 or less but was more than nil, and
(c) the sum of those profits is equal to or more than the sum of the person’s relevant income for those tax years.

Could the 50% test be in point?

deliclare

calcotti said:

deliclare said:

Well we won't be getting a penny.
My husband's 18-19 tax return was £300 over the threshold. Utter rubbish that they say they will look at the other 2 tax years and take an average from the last 3  - they don't - even though the 2 previous tax years earned him £30k. 

They only go by the 18-19 tax return. Utterly pointless promises made by the government. No surprise there then. 

No they don't. If you fail on the 2018-19 test they will then duo the average of three years test. If you think HMRC have done it wrong then take it up with them.

deliclare said:

..,  they are revising the threshold down to 30k for the next payment. Good luck folks. 

Where have you got that from?

My husband spoke to them today. They are saying categorically that because 18-19 was over the threshold (the 2 previous years were well under) they are NOT paying us anything. 

My husband spoke to them today. They are saying categorically that because 18-19 was over the threshold (the 2 previous years were well under) they are NOT paying us anything

deliclare

My husband spoke to them today. They are saying categorically that because 18-19 was over the threshold (the 2 previous years were well under) they are NOT paying us anything

deliclare

Jeremy535897 said:

That is wrong. The legislation is clear. Based on what you have said, your husband is eligible by meeting Condition B (I assume he is not within the loan charge):
5.1 The profits condition is met if-  (a) where the person is not subject to the loan charge, the person meets condition A, B or C, or
(b) where the person is subject to the loan charge, the person meets condition D or E.
5.2 Condition A is met if-
(a) the person’s trading profits of the tax year 2018-19 were £50,000 or less but were more than nil, and
(b) those profits are equal to or more than the person’s relevant income in that tax year.
5.3 Condition B is met if-
(a) the person carried on a trade in the tax years 2016-17, 2017-18 and 2018-19,
(b) the average amount of the person’s trading profits of those tax years was £50,000 or less but was more than nil, and
(c) the sum of those profits is equal to or more than the sum of the person’s relevant income for those tax years.
5.4 Condition C is met if-
(a) the person carried on a trade in the tax years 2017-18 and 2018-19 but did not carry on a trade in the tax year 2016-17,
(b) the average amount of the person’s trading profits of the tax years 2017-18 and 2018-19 was £50,000 or less but was more than nil, and
(c) the sum of those profits is equal to or more than the sum of the person’s relevant income for those tax years.

Could the 50% test be in point?

Could you send me the link with the information that you got this from please? 
They are saying categorically that because 18-19 tax return was 50,300 he is not eligible. Despite being well under for the previous 2 tax years. 

antonic

deliclare said:

Jeremy535897 said:

That is wrong. The legislation is clear. Based on what you have said, your husband is eligible by meeting Condition B (I assume he is not within the loan charge):
5.1 The profits condition is met if-  (a) where the person is not subject to the loan charge, the person meets condition A, B or C, or
(b) where the person is subject to the loan charge, the person meets condition D or E.
5.2 Condition A is met if-
(a) the person’s trading profits of the tax year 2018-19 were £50,000 or less but were more than nil, and
(b) those profits are equal to or more than the person’s relevant income in that tax year.
5.3 Condition B is met if-
(a) the person carried on a trade in the tax years 2016-17, 2017-18 and 2018-19,
(b) the average amount of the person’s trading profits of those tax years was £50,000 or less but was more than nil, and
(c) the sum of those profits is equal to or more than the sum of the person’s relevant income for those tax years.
5.4 Condition C is met if-
(a) the person carried on a trade in the tax years 2017-18 and 2018-19 but did not carry on a trade in the tax year 2016-17,
(b) the average amount of the person’s trading profits of the tax years 2017-18 and 2018-19 was £50,000 or less but was more than nil, and
(c) the sum of those profits is equal to or more than the sum of the person’s relevant income for those tax years.

Could the 50% test be in point?

Could you send me the link with the information that you got this from please? 
They are saying categorically that because 18-19 tax return was 50,300 he is not eligible. Despite being well under for the previous 2 tax years. 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/claim-a-grant-through-the-coronavirus-covid-19-self-employment-income-support-scheme
Here is the guidance and this is why your husband is ineligible 
To work out your eligibility we will first look at your 2018 to 2019 Self Assessment tax return. Your trading profits must be no more than £50,000 and at least equal to your non-trading income.
Sorry, but remember its the Treasury and the Government who have set the rules, HMRC implement them.

theoretica

antonic said:

deliclare said:

Jeremy535897 said:

That is wrong. The legislation is clear. Based on what you have said, your husband is eligible by meeting Condition B (I assume he is not within the loan charge):
5.1 The profits condition is met if-  (a) where the person is not subject to the loan charge, the person meets condition A, B or C, or
(b) where the person is subject to the loan charge, the person meets condition D or E.
5.2 Condition A is met if-
(a) the person’s trading profits of the tax year 2018-19 were £50,000 or less but were more than nil, and
(b) those profits are equal to or more than the person’s relevant income in that tax year.
5.3 Condition B is met if-
(a) the person carried on a trade in the tax years 2016-17, 2017-18 and 2018-19,
(b) the average amount of the person’s trading profits of those tax years was £50,000 or less but was more than nil, and
(c) the sum of those profits is equal to or more than the sum of the person’s relevant income for those tax years.
5.4 Condition C is met if-
(a) the person carried on a trade in the tax years 2017-18 and 2018-19 but did not carry on a trade in the tax year 2016-17,
(b) the average amount of the person’s trading profits of the tax years 2017-18 and 2018-19 was £50,000 or less but was more than nil, and
(c) the sum of those profits is equal to or more than the sum of the person’s relevant income for those tax years.

Could the 50% test be in point?

Could you send me the link with the information that you got this from please? 
They are saying categorically that because 18-19 tax return was 50,300 he is not eligible. Despite being well under for the previous 2 tax years. 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/claim-a-grant-through-the-coronavirus-covid-19-self-employment-income-support-scheme
Here is the guidance and this is why your husband is ineligible 
To work out your eligibility we will first look at your 2018 to 2019 Self Assessment tax return. Your trading profits must be no more than £50,000 and at least equal to your non-trading income.
Sorry, but remember its the Treasury and the Government who have set the rules, HMRC implement them.

The next bit says 'If you’re not eligible based on the 2018 to 2019 Self Assessment tax return, we will then look at the tax years 2016 to 2017, 2017 to 2018, and 2018 to 2019.'  So still seems worth pursuing.

Grumpy_chap

antonic said:

deliclare said:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/claim-a-grant-through-the-coronavirus-covid-19-self-employment-income-support-scheme
Here is the guidance and this is why your husband is ineligible 
To work out your eligibility we will first look at your 2018 to 2019 Self Assessment tax return. Your trading profits must be no more than £50,000 and at least equal to your non-trading income.
Sorry, but remember its the Treasury and the Government who have set the rules, HMRC implement them.

Yes, but the next paragraph as well..

"To work out your eligibility we will first look at your 2018 to 2019 Self Assessment tax return. Your trading profits must be no more than £50,000 and at least equal to your non-trading income.

If you’re not eligible based on the 2018 to 2019 Self Assessment tax return, we will then look at the tax years 2016 to 2017, 2017 to 2018, and 2018 to 2019."

It looks as though the HMRC have read the first paragraph and then stopped.  Or followed that process looking at the earlier years but found another reason to decline. So, the web site continues:

"Find out how we will work out your eligibility including if we have to use other years."  The OP should use this link to investigate further.

Jeremy535897

The legislation is more important than any guidance, although as Theoretica says, the guidance allows the claim anyway. The legislation is here:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/882593/SEISS_Direction_Final_-_SIGNED.pdf
The profits condition is in paragraph 5.

vjacx

deliclare said:

Well we won't be getting a penny.
My husband's 18-19 tax return was £300 over the threshold. Utter rubbish that they say they will look at the other 2 tax years and take an average from the last 3  - they don't - even though the 2 previous tax years earned him £30k. 

They only go by the 18-19 tax return. Utterly pointless promises made by the government. No surprise there then. 

Let's all get back to work. Best of luck to the self employed- even if the self employed get any more 'support' (they are thinking of not paying out again),  they are revising the threshold down to 30k for the next payment. Good luck folks. 

Hi, I have almost exactly the same - most recent return was over the magic 50k but preceding 2 years were not.  I have applied and been approved by HMRC as my averaged profit taken over three years was 40k ish.  Their calculations matched my own exactly.  You should ask them to review their decision if you should meet the criteria in all other aspects.