Leased Company Car Transferring liability to driver

Nuddmann

Folks, I've read through the relevant section in the Newbies thread and looked at POFA in relation to leased vehicle parking charges but remain in the dark. 

Briefly:

• Son is an alarm engineer and drives a company van, van is leased by his company from a vehicle leasing outfit.  
• Parking Eye parking charge incurred at  Hilton Stanstead Airport as he was attending an emergency alarm callout. The alarm company vehicles are exempted from parking charges, but the mechanism for this couldn't be completed due to the hotel being closed because of Covid. 
• Postal PCN issued as vehicle not registered at hotel during time in car park.  Charge is an ANPR charge. no NTD
• Parking Eye appear to have followed POFA in terms of having keeper liability transferred from leasing company to the alarm company
• The alarm company's policy on PCNs is to either admit liability, in which case money is deducted from salary, or appeal. The company policy is that the driver  must be responsible for this and keep alarm company appraised of progress. 

He has emailed his contact at the hotel to request cancellation of charge, as it is a "permanent" site for his alarm company. 

My concern is that I can't find any provision in POFA for liability to be further transferred from the alarm company, as they are the hirer/lessee, to him. I can't see how he can appeal as the driver, unless I'm being really stupid? I also don't trust any of the admin people in his company to deal with it properly and can forsee him ending up with a salary deduction if the initial complaint to the hotel doesn't work out.  He's only been there 8 months and, in the current climate, any suggestions that he should take his company to a tribunal for unlawful deduction of salary because it's an invoice etc are non starters. I'd rather give him the £100 than him lose his job!


I'm going to get him to email the department dealing with PCNs etc to get them to forward to him ALL correspondence received from Parking Eye, hopefully they'll have failed to send copies of the hire agreements provided to them by the original leasing company. At least we'll have a head start for a POPLA appeal. 

In the meantime, if anyone could point me in the right direction of how he can get himself named as the driver and his alarm company out of the loop I'd be really grateful. The Edna Basher appeals I looked at don't appear to cover this situation, relying on the "company" to appeal. 

I've attached photo of company policy, hopefully to illustrate my dilemma. 

Redx

The alarm company have presumably received an nth from parking eye ?

They reply and name the hirer or lessee as day to day keeper of the vehicle , in other words , keeper

Parking eye then send a nth to that hirer or lessee , in their own name at their home address

Nobody divulges who was driving , this is all about keepers and the lineup of keepers , which POFA has specific paragraphs that deal with keepers , see the Edna basher advice at the bottom of the first post in the newbies FAQ sticky thread

Parking Eye should then issue that nth to the keeper and include the hire or lease documents as well , which they usually fail to include

The hirer keeper of lessee keeper then appeals as keeper using an Edna basher template , never divulging who was driving

So it's all about keepers and red tape

There is one Edna basher alternative where he appeals on behalf of the alarm company as keeper

If the alarm company want to transfer liability , they should name the lessee or hirer to absolve themselves under POFA , in other words they should follow the laws of the land , especially as it's been in force over 7 years !!. They are not above the law , so should comply with it , because the law trumps their terms and conditions

D_P_Dance

Hire care PCNs are  dealt with in the newbies at the top of the index page, , please read them 

ParkingEye's signs leave much to be desired and are unlkely to convince a judge that they are able to form a contract, read this,

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5972164/parking-eye-signs-oxford-road-reading

 It is not a fine, it is an invoice from an ex-clamper to compensate them for the alleged harm they suffered when you did what you did. We call it a scam. Pay them not a penny unless a judge so orders it.

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP, it can cause the scammer extra costs and work, and has been known to get the charge cancelled.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully, when life gets back to normal, it will become impossible for those scammers who are left to continue their vile trade, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

 

Coupon-mad

The alarm company's policy on PCNs is to either admit liability, in which case money is deducted from salary, or appeal. The company policy is that the driver  must be responsible for this and keep alarm company appraised of progress. 

He can 'take responsibility' and go ahead and appeal in the name of the Alarm Company, giving his email address and name as contact for the appellant company, and ticking 'hirer/lessee' and also giving his home address as the address for service of a POPLA code.

He uses Edna Basher's version written for companies (see NEWBIES thread).

He then tells the employer that he has appealed but this is routinely rejected and escalated to a second stage called POPLA that he is likely to win because the parking firm have failed to enclose the necessary forms with the Notice they sent to the Alarm co.  But that will mean they MUST tell staff to pass him any Parking Eye letter they next get, which might include a 'Reminder' and might include a 'rejection of first appeal' letter with a ten digit POPLA code at the top. 

He tells them he takes 'full responsibility' but to win the appeal, they must not just pay on the next letter and must instead pass the next letter(s) to him (should ParkingEye use the company address for their letters).

I think he'll have to tell the Alarm co that he will pay it for them if he loses at POPLA.  However he must make the above 'two stage appeal process and POPLA' crystal clear so no-one ruins it by paying on receiving a rejection letter (or Reminder) that P/Eye might just post to the company.

Nuddmann

Redx said:

The alarm company have presumably received an nth from parking eye ?

They reply and name the hirer or lessee as day to day keeper of the vehicle , in other words , keeper

Parking eye then send a nth to that hirer or lessee , in their own name at their home address

Nobody divulges who was driving , this is all about keepers and the lineup of keepers , which POFA has specific paragraphs that deal with keepers , see the Edna basher advice at the bottom of the first post in the newbies FAQ sticky thread

Parking Eye should then issue that nth to the keeper and include the hire or lease documents as well , which they usually fail to include

The hirer keeper of lessee keeper then appeals as keeper using an Edna basher template , never divulging who was driving

So it's all about keepers and red tape

There is one Edna basher alternative where he appeals on behalf of the alarm company as keeper

If the alarm company want to transfer liability , they should name the lessee or hirer to absolve themselves under POFA , in other words they should follow the laws of the land , especially as it's been in force over 7 years !!. They are not above the law , so should comply with it , because the law trumps their terms and conditions

Thanks for. the reply however, I may not have made the "chain" clear enough. 

Alarm company are my son's employer. Liability has already been transferred to them as the hirer from the company from whom they hire the vehicle. My son is the driver, working for alarm company.  

I'll follow C-M's suggestion, that makes a lot of sense. 

Redx

We are aware of who the driver may be , the advice does not change , because surmising and knowing are different

For POFA to win , the driver must not be divulged , even if it's obvious

This person is appealing as a keeper using the law of the land , POFA , because parking eye will have failed POFA , so failure to comply with the law is a winner for the appellant

Only a fool names or divulges the driver , if you don't understand what you are being told , tell him to come here and read this thread

Think of it as like an arrested criminal stating , no comment , even when the evidence seems clear , if he wasn't read his rights as a criminal , he wins on a technicality because complying with the law is a 2 way street

Umkomaas

Hire company = Registered Keeper
Alarm Company = Hirer
Son = Day-to-day Keeper 

No driver identified. The Alarm company should only identify your son as day-to-day keeper.

Coupon-mad

Or do what I said which is safer.  Appeal as the Alarm co.

Nuddmann

Coupon-mad said:

Or do what I said which is safer.  Appeal as the Alarm co.

Thanks C-M, I will do. I've already drafted an email for him to send to his employer's vehicle section based on what you suggested and asking for them to send him any further documents that PE have (or should have!) sent them. Having looked art various threads it seems that they often fail the provisions of 14(2) of the legislation, but having that confirmed by his employer will help at POPLA. 

Umkomaas, I understand that my son could be considered the day to day keeper as defined by POFA, but the provisions relating to hire vehicles don't seem to enable a further transfer of liability from the hirer - his employer - to him, the day to day keeper. Thanks for the clarification though. 

Nuddmann

Coupon-mad said:

Or do what I said which is safer.  Appeal as the Alarm co.

Hi C-M

I've adapted the Edna Basher template appeal, would be grateful if you could QA it. 

Dear Sir or Madam
Parking Charge Notice Ref. 123456: Vehicle Registration FU02PPC

We are in receipt of the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice ("PCN") dated 24/4/2020 and issued by Parking Eye Ltd to our company [ABC Ltd] ("[ABC]") in respect of an unpaid parking charge allegedly incurred at Hampton by Hilton, Stansted Airport on 31/3/20
We confirm that ABC is the vehicle's hirer and keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definitions under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("POFA") and we write to dispute this PCN.
The PCN does not state the reason for the incurred charge but gives 3 different potential reasons without specifying which one applies. In addition, the PCN states a maximum stay time of “0 hours 0 minutes”, which is confusing and contradictory. We trust you will agree that it would be unreasonable for Parking Eye Ltd to expect us to pay this charge.
Notwithstanding this, the PCN failed to comply with the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA, particularly S.14 (2) and consequently Parking Eye Ltd has forfeited any right to claim unpaid parking charges from [ABC] as the vehicle's hirer and keeper.
Within 28 days please provide us with written confirmation of Parking Eye Ltd's acceptance that it cannot and does not hold [ABC] liable for this parking charge and that this is now purely a matter between Parking Eye Ltd and the driver.
Please ensure that all written correspondence is sent to: Mr XXXX. XXXXXXX at ADDRESS  and that all email communications are sent to: WORK@EMAIL.COM

Thank you for your cooperation and we look forward to receiving this confirmation.
Yours faithfully etc.

Just one further bit of guidance if that's ok:
He's emailed the hotel and they appear to be on the case. I'm minded to hold fire on appealing for the moment to give the hotel a chance to cancel the charge and confirm this by email. I am however, conscious of appeal timescales and just need to check my maths on this - date of issue of NTH is 24/4/20. Appeal needs to be done 21 days starting from 2 working days from date of issue, so I make the deadline for appeal as 19/5/20. 

Need to check this as the timescale for hired vehicles seem to be slightly more complex?

Thanks so far

Coupon-mad

I make it 19th, yes. 

Also you need to be sure to get past day 21 from when P/Eye got the Alarm firm's name from the rk/owner firm, in order to be sure they won't swiftly post a compliant version with attachments!