UK citizen repatriated to UK with expired UK driving license

Murphy_The_Cat

AdrianC said:

Murphy_The_Cat said:

An 80 year old relative of mine has repatriated back to the UK after living for a long period abroad.

He has an old style UK driving license which expired on his 70th birthday and wasn't renewed.

He's got a current US driving license and an International driving permit.

He is now back in the UK to stay and a) wants to drive in the UK and b) wants to buy his own car and insure it in his own name.

What is his best way to proceed ?

Currently, I'm thinking that his best option is to renew his UK driving license (but i don't know how he'd do this) and wait until he has a new style DL in his posession before buying a car, insuring it under his name and driving again.

How do you go about renewing a lapsed UK driving license that lapsed 10 years ago, or is there another option that staring me in the face that I'm missing ?

It's exactly the same as renewing any other age-lapsed driving licence.
https://www.gov.uk/renew-driving-licence-at-70

Obviously, he can't continue to drive on it - but he can drive on his US licence for a year from his arrival here.
https://www.gov.uk/driving-nongb-licence

Yes, driving on a US licence will be expensive to insure.
Yes, at the moment it'll take a while for DVLA to renew.
No, it isn't currently an issue because he shouldn't be driving anywhere anyway.

If he's got his old UK DL with him him, doing the renewal will be OK.  If he hasn't got the old UK DL, its going to take quite a bit longer to do.

Exemplar said:

IIRC it's the same in reverse. I had to spend longish stints in the US and I bought and drove a car there on both occasions with no hinderance as I had a 'permanent' US address. He should be fine for a few months as long as he has a permanent UK address.

Yes, he's got a permanent UK address to use.

After so long in the US, he's already find that whilst some things are so similar to what he's used to, whilst some are very different - plus Govermnet departments and other organisations being on short time makes doing straightforward admin tasks much more difficult and time consuming.

2Protons

If this is still an issue or could potentially reduce the cost of insurance compare to using an American driving licence  especially if he still physically has his old UK DL it might be worth seeing if Section 88 of the Road Traffic Act applies here.  As some else has mention in another discussion  (although this new forum software is not letting post links properly so apologies if they don't work properly but you should be able to find the original post ) 
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6123990/driving-licence-renewal-during-covid-19/p4

TooManyPoints said:

Dinghy said:

As an update to this ,

I have spoken to police about this issue , If you send your licence away and it is not back in your possession by the expiry date on your old  licence you are committing an offence by driving !  

Which demonstrates clearly that you should never take legal advice from a police officer.

The officer concerned needs to acquaint himself with Section 88 of the Road Traffic Act. This says, essentially, (subject to a few exceptions which do not apply here) that provided a licence application has been received by the Secretary of State (i.e. the DVLA) the applicant may continue to drive beyond the expiry date of his current licence. The Section can be read in full here:

ukpga/1988/52/section/88

It's a bit involved so here's the relevant passages:

Notwithstanding section 87 of this Act [which says you must have a driving licence in order to drive], a person may drive or cause or permit another person to drive a vehicle of any class at any time if—

(a)the driver has held—

(i)a licence under this Part of this Act to drive vehicles of that or a corresponding class,...

and

(i)a qualifying application by the driver for the grant of a licence to drive vehicles of that class for a period which includes that time has been received by the Secretary of State,...

Sending an application by recorded delivery and having advice of its receipt should be sufficient to be confident that the application has been received. This does not, of course, overcome some of the other problems, such as getting a suitable photo. But police officers should not dish out advice which is outside their competence.

Murphy_The_Cat

2Protons said:

If this is still an issue or could potentially reduce the cost of insurance compare to using an American driving licence  especially if he still physically has his old UK DL it might be worth seeing if Section 88 of the Road Traffic Act applies here.  As some else has mention in another discussion  (although this new forum software is not letting post links properly so apologies if they don't work properly but you should be able to find the original post ) 
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6123990/driving-licence-renewal-during-covid-19/p4

TooManyPoints said:

Dinghy said:

As an update to this ,

I have spoken to police about this issue , If you send your licence away and it is not back in your possession by the expiry date on your old  licence you are committing an offence by driving !  

Which demonstrates clearly that you should never take legal advice from a police officer.

The officer concerned needs to acquaint himself with Section 88 of the Road Traffic Act. This says, essentially, (subject to a few exceptions which do not apply here) that provided a licence application has been received by the Secretary of State (i.e. the DVLA) the applicant may continue to drive beyond the expiry date of his current licence. The Section can be read in full here:

ukpga/1988/52/section/88

It's a bit involved so here's the relevant passages:

Notwithstanding section 87 of this Act [which says you must have a driving licence in order to drive], a person may drive or cause or permit another person to drive a vehicle of any class at any time if—

(a)the driver has held—

(i)a licence under this Part of this Act to drive vehicles of that or a corresponding class,...

and

(i)a qualifying application by the driver for the grant of a licence to drive vehicles of that class for a period which includes that time has been received by the Secretary of State,...

Sending an application by recorded delivery and having advice of its receipt should be sufficient to be confident that the application has been received. This does not, of course, overcome some of the other problems, such as getting a suitable photo. But police officers should not dish out advice which is outside their competence.

Thank you so much.  Sadly, he doesn't have a physical copy of his old (out of date) licence, so I wouldn't fancy giving the above a shot.  I/we are now going down the "replacing a lost driving licence" route, as that can be done online.

Jumblebumble

AdrianC said:

Murphy_The_Cat said:

An 80 year old relative of mine has repatriated back to the UK after living for a long period abroad.

He has an old style UK driving license which expired on his 70th birthday and wasn't renewed.

He's got a current US driving license and an International driving permit.

He is now back in the UK to stay and a) wants to drive in the UK and b) wants to buy his own car and insure it in his own name.

What is his best way to proceed ?

Currently, I'm thinking that his best option is to renew his UK driving license (but i don't know how he'd do this) and wait until he has a new style DL in his posession before buying a car, insuring it under his name and driving again.

How do you go about renewing a lapsed UK driving license that lapsed 10 years ago, or is there another option that staring me in the face that I'm missing ?

It's exactly the same as renewing any other age-lapsed driving licence.
https://www.gov.uk/renew-driving-licence-at-70

Obviously, he can't continue to drive on it - but he can drive on his US licence for a year from his arrival here.
https://www.gov.uk/driving-nongb-licence

Yes, driving on a US licence will be expensive to insure.
Yes, at the moment it'll take a while for DVLA to renew.
No, it isn't currently an issue because he shouldn't be driving anywhere anyway.

Can you clarify why he cannot drive according to the text in the renewal link
The renewal  page says

Driving while DVLA has your licence

You can drive while your licence is being renewed if you meet all the following conditions:

• you have the support of your doctor to continue driving
• you had a valid licence
• you only drive under the conditions of the previous licence
• your application is less than a year old
• your last licence wasn’t revoked or refused for medical reasons
• you’re not currently disqualified
• you weren’t disqualified as a high risk offender on or after 1 June 2013

Murphy_The_Cat

Murphy_The_Cat said:

2Protons said:

If this is still an issue or could potentially reduce the cost of insurance compare to using an American driving licence  especially if he still physically has his old UK DL it might be worth seeing if Section 88 of the Road Traffic Act applies here.  As some else has mention in another discussion  (although this new forum software is not letting post links properly so apologies if they don't work properly but you should be able to find the original post ) 
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6123990/driving-licence-renewal-during-covid-19/p4

TooManyPoints said:

Dinghy said:

As an update to this ,

I have spoken to police about this issue , If you send your licence away and it is not back in your possession by the expiry date on your old  licence you are committing an offence by driving !  

Which demonstrates clearly that you should never take legal advice from a police officer.

The officer concerned needs to acquaint himself with Section 88 of the Road Traffic Act. This says, essentially, (subject to a few exceptions which do not apply here) that provided a licence application has been received by the Secretary of State (i.e. the DVLA) the applicant may continue to drive beyond the expiry date of his current licence. The Section can be read in full here:

ukpga/1988/52/section/88

It's a bit involved so here's the relevant passages:

Notwithstanding section 87 of this Act [which says you must have a driving licence in order to drive], a person may drive or cause or permit another person to drive a vehicle of any class at any time if—

(a)the driver has held—

(i)a licence under this Part of this Act to drive vehicles of that or a corresponding class,...

and

(i)a qualifying application by the driver for the grant of a licence to drive vehicles of that class for a period which includes that time has been received by the Secretary of State,...

Sending an application by recorded delivery and having advice of its receipt should be sufficient to be confident that the application has been received. This does not, of course, overcome some of the other problems, such as getting a suitable photo. But police officers should not dish out advice which is outside their competence.

Thank you so much.  Sadly, he doesn't have a physical copy of his old (out of date) licence, so I wouldn't fancy giving the above a shot.  I/we are now going down the "replacing a lost driving licence" route, as that can be done online.

Unfortunatley the DVLA online has said that he's not eligible to use to apply for the service, so it looks like we're going to have to wait for his (expired) driving licence to get over here with his other belongings.

AdrianC

Jumblebumble said:

AdrianC said:

Murphy_The_Cat said:

An 80 year old relative of mine has repatriated back to the UK after living for a long period abroad.

He has an old style UK driving license which expired on his 70th birthday and wasn't renewed.

He's got a current US driving license and an International driving permit.

He is now back in the UK to stay and a) wants to drive in the UK and b) wants to buy his own car and insure it in his own name.

What is his best way to proceed ?

Currently, I'm thinking that his best option is to renew his UK driving license (but i don't know how he'd do this) and wait until he has a new style DL in his posession before buying a car, insuring it under his name and driving again.

How do you go about renewing a lapsed UK driving license that lapsed 10 years ago, or is there another option that staring me in the face that I'm missing ?

It's exactly the same as renewing any other age-lapsed driving licence.
https://www.gov.uk/renew-driving-licence-at-70

Obviously, he can't continue to drive on it - but he can drive on his US licence for a year from his arrival here.
https://www.gov.uk/driving-nongb-licence

Yes, driving on a US licence will be expensive to insure.
Yes, at the moment it'll take a while for DVLA to renew.
No, it isn't currently an issue because he shouldn't be driving anywhere anyway.

Can you clarify why he cannot drive according to the text in the renewal link
The renewal  page says

Driving while DVLA has your licence

You can drive while your licence is being renewed if you meet all the following conditions:

• you have the support of your doctor to continue driving
• you had a valid licence
• you only drive under the conditions of the previous licence
• your application is less than a year old
• your last licence wasn’t revoked or refused for medical reasons
• you’re not currently disqualified
• you weren’t disqualified as a high risk offender on or after 1 June 2013

Second bullet point. He did not have a valid UK licence. He hasn't had a valid UK licence for a decade.

Emmia

Your "entitlement to drive" only lasts until your 70th birthday so he'll need to reapply for his licence, including doing all the medical elements to have a valid UK licence. He can't drive on his "UK licence" whilst he is awaiting his new licence document beceause his entitlement has lapsed.

I think you can use a non UK licence for up to 12 months, and if he had a licence from a country where there is an exchange arrangement that is another route that can be used - however this is not available to US licence holders.

Jumblebumble

I am not convinced 
Can anyone tell me why  section 88 does not apply here and  reenable the entitlement to drive as soon the DVLA receive an application as per the below extract from
 As soon as the DVLA receives your correct and complete application for a new licence and as long as you meet all the Section 88 criteria you may drive.
To address the bit about having  had a license section 88 actually says

• You have held a valid driving licence (see

*below) and only drive vehicles you have

applied for on your current application and

were entitled to drive on your previous licence
There is no qualification on when the license was expired

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/695575/inf188x6-can-i-drive-while-my-application-is-with-dvla.pdf

Emmia

Jumblebumble said:

I am not convinced 
Can anyone tell me why  section 88 does not apply here and  reenable the entitlement to drive as soon the DVLA receive an application as per the below extract from
 As soon as the DVLA receives your correct and complete application for a new licence and as long as you meet all the Section 88 criteria you may drive.
To address the bit about having  had a license section 88 actually says

• You have held a valid driving licence (see

*below) and only drive vehicles you have

applied for on your current application and

were entitled to drive on your previous licence
There is no qualification on when the license was expired

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/695575/inf188x6-can-i-drive-while-my-application-is-with-dvla.pdf

Renewing the licence for the over 70's requires the support of a doctor to certify that the person is medically fit enough - the entitlement to drive can be renewed once the applicant has this confirmation. 
https://www.gov.uk/renew-driving-licence-at-70

Car_54

Jumblebumble said:

I am not convinced 
Can anyone tell me why  section 88 does not apply here and  reenable the entitlement to drive as soon the DVLA receive an application as per the below extract from
 As soon as the DVLA receives your correct and complete application for a new licence and as long as you meet all the Section 88 criteria you may drive.
To address the bit about having  had a license section 88 actually says

• You have held a valid driving licence (see

*below) and only drive vehicles you have

applied for on your current application and

were entitled to drive on your previous licence
There is no qualification on when the license was expired

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/695575/inf188x6-can-i-drive-while-my-application-is-with-dvla.pdf

Agreed. s88 says "has held" rather than "holds". But it also says that he can only drive if his application has been rerceived by the Secretary of State. Since the SoS's boys at the DVLA aren't even opening the post at the moment that's going to be difficult.