80% grant for self employed

calcotti

Hermann said:

The bit in bold is not the governments advice though.

Quite. There still seems to be a lot of confusion around what the government has actually advised. 
We are expected to work at home if possible. If not we are expected to go to our normal workplace unless it has been closed by the government and appropriate social distancing and protection measures are supposed to be put in place if possible. A lot of people seem to think that if they are not key workers they are required not to work.

WayneB73

“stay at home, only essential visits to shops and doctors permitted, save the NHS and safe lives”

The bit in bold is not the governments advice though.

It was the scientist advice but the government were selling it and telling everyone on national tv..  people have been getting fined by the police, there’s even reports that police have lectured people buying alcohol from shops and telling them that alcohol isn’t essential shopping..   if they wanted people back at work they wouldn’t of added another 3 weeks to the furlough..  the governments actions and speeches on tv have caused everyone to sit at home,  to argue against it is a contradiction of what they are advising.

Hermann

WayneB73 said:

“stay at home, only essential visits to shops and doctors permitted, save the NHS and safe lives”

The bit in bold is not the governments advice though.

It was the scientist advice but the government were selling it and telling everyone on national tv..  people have been getting fined by the police, there’s even reports that police have lectured people buying alcohol from shops and telling them that alcohol isn’t essential shopping..   if they wanted people back at work they wouldn’t of added another 3 weeks to the furlough..  the governments actions and speeches on tv have caused everyone to sit at home,  to argue against it is a contradiction of what they are advising.

Here is what the official government advice is, I'm not sure what source you and your accountant are using but no where does it indicate the self employed should stop working and sit at home, quite the opposite in fact.

The TV messages have been giving the exact same advice, go to work if you can't work from home.

Note the bits underlined in red....










Read for yourself at the following links....

https://www.gov.uk/coronavirus

http://https//www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do

WayneB73

Hermann said:

WayneB73 said:

“stay at home, only essential visits to shops and doctors permitted, save the NHS and safe lives”

The bit in bold is not the governments advice though.

It was the scientist advice but the government were selling it and telling everyone on national tv..  people have been getting fined by the police, there’s even reports that police have lectured people buying alcohol from shops and telling them that alcohol isn’t essential shopping..   if they wanted people back at work they wouldn’t of added another 3 weeks to the furlough..  the governments actions and speeches on tv have caused everyone to sit at home,  to argue against it is a contradiction of what they are advising.

Here is what the official government advice is, I'm not sure what source you and your accountant are using but no where does it indicate the self employed should stop working and sit at home, quite the opposite in fact.

The TV messages have been giving the exact same advice, go to work if you can't work from home.

Note the bits underlined in red....










Read for yourself at the following links....

https://www.gov.uk/coronavirus

http://https//www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do

I don’t disagree with any of that,   Your telling me this and I get your point but there’s other people thinking and telling me we can either stay at home and get paid or go to work and still get the grant on top of what we earn which going back to my first post, the question was can we still work and get the grant on top. But your saying the government may not even give us the grant if they think we could still be working?    It seems everyone had a different opinion?   By the way I don’t have an accountant advising me as I file my own return, it’s other subbys like my self who are saying we’ll get paid even if we work etc,  I’m inclined to air on the side of being sceptical like your self..

Hermann

WayneB73 said:

Hermann said:

WayneB73 said:

“stay at home, only essential visits to shops and doctors permitted, save the NHS and safe lives”

The bit in bold is not the governments advice though.

It was the scientist advice but the government were selling it and telling everyone on national tv..  people have been getting fined by the police, there’s even reports that police have lectured people buying alcohol from shops and telling them that alcohol isn’t essential shopping..   if they wanted people back at work they wouldn’t of added another 3 weeks to the furlough..  the governments actions and speeches on tv have caused everyone to sit at home,  to argue against it is a contradiction of what they are advising.

Here is what the official government advice is, I'm not sure what source you and your accountant are using but no where does it indicate the self employed should stop working and sit at home, quite the opposite in fact.

The TV messages have been giving the exact same advice, go to work if you can't work from home.

Note the bits underlined in red....










Read for yourself at the following links....

https://www.gov.uk/coronavirus

http://https//www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do

I don’t disagree with any of that,   Your telling me this and I get your point but there’s other people thinking and telling me we can either stay at home and get paid or go to work and still get the grant on top of what we earn which going back to my first post, the question was can we still work and get the grant on top. But your saying the government may not even give us the grant if they think we could still be working?    It seems everyone had a different opinion?   By the way I don’t have an accountant advising me as I file my own return, it’s other subbys like my self who are saying we’ll get paid even if we work etc,  I’m inclined to air on the side of being sceptical like your self..

Apologies it was another poster who mentioned their accountant!

The answer to your first post is contained in the guidance, the self employed should continue to work and if by June they have reduced income due to Covid-19 they are entitled to apply for the scheme. Working during the March - June period does not automatically exclude you. Nor does any income earned during the March - June period affect the amount of the grant you would be entitled to apply for, it's all or nothing and based on your 2016-2019 earnings.

The question remains as to how those entitled to apply will actually qualify for a payment. That is going to be determined by the questions you're asked in June. We don't know what those questions are or what, if any, evidence will be required.   

HMRC are not releasing that info, and I suspect purposely so. They clearly intend the self employed to try and continue as normal and only once you get to June do you consider the effect on March - June trading retrospectively.

They don't intend to offer a blanket support of 80% grant to anyone in advance so that those who prefer to stop working have a guaranteed payment. Instead the intention is you continue to work and if retrospectively your income has suffered due to Covid19 there could be support available.

How that impact is measured and what level of reduction qualifies you is the unknown part. It could be a simple tick box with no evidence to provide or it could be a lot more detailed. Who knows?

What is very clear is that to qualify for Government Support you are expected to follow Government Advice, follow the official guidance and continue to meet the criteria to be eligible to apply.

That means to stand a chance of a payment then technically the self employed should be continuing to work, thats both general government advice & following SEISS guidance. However we don't know to what extent that criteria will be monitored.

It would seem reasonable to suggest though that if a question is asked on the form and reply given that "as a self employed person I lost all my income due to the Government advice instructing me to stay home and not got to work"  then that application will fail as that applicant does not meet the criteria of the scheme.

Similarly if they continue to work and earned the same or more than usual they too would fail to meet the criteria.

Somewhere inbetween is a line that separates those who qualify and those who do not. Thats the bit we don't know yet.

It would seem the intention is the self employed are expected to continue to do their best to continue working for the time being and when we get to June the actual impact will be assessed in some, as yet unknown way.

If you continue to meet the criteria to apply and pass the qualifying questions you get the full 80% payment identified in the guidance. If you don't meet the criteria or don't pass the qualifying question you get no payment.



  

kremlinbot

To add another angle to this - my situation is that my sole-trader business cannot trade, I do not qualify for universal credit, and the SEISS grant that I expect to get in June will not cover my rent.
So I have managed to get a temp job in a warehouse until I can start my business operations up again, to the best of my knowledge of how the system works and a chat with  gov business line, I am not expecting this to affect the SEISS grant and it would seem a bit crazy and wrong for any deductions to be taken away in this case.

Hermann

kremlinbot said:

To add another angle to this - my situation is that my sole-trader business cannot trade, I do not qualify for universal credit, and the SEISS grant that I expect to get in June will not cover my rent.
So I have managed to get a temp job in a warehouse until I can start my business operations up again, to the best of my knowledge of how the system works and a chat with  gov business line, I am not expecting this to affect the SEISS grant and it would seem a bit crazy and wrong for any deductions to be taken away in this case.

It sounds like you're doing exactly whats expected and there doesn't seem to be anything in the guidance to suggest you've affected your eligibility to the SEISS.

As the guidance stands at the moment you either get the full grant or no grant at all, there's no deductions mentioned anywhere.

calcotti

Hermann, thanks for that lengthy post at 12:33. It's a very clear summary of the known unknowns!

Jeremy535897

Hermann is absolutely right when he says we don't know what the criteria will be for the "business affected" test:

"Who can claim

You can claim if you’re a self-employed individual or a member of a partnership and you:

• have submitted your Self Assessment tax return for the tax year 2018 to 2019
• traded in the tax year 2019 to 2020
• are trading when you apply, or would be except for coronavirus
• intend to continue to trade in the tax year 2020 to 2021
• have lost trading profits due to coronavirus

You will need to confirm to HMRC that your business has been adversely affected by coronavirus. HMRC will as usual use a risk based approach to compliance."

I am not convinced that it will require a reduction in taxable trading profits, though. I say this because of Example 3 in the how to work out profits etc. It says:

"If you traded for more than one year

To work out your average trading profit we will add together all profits and losses for all tax years you’ve had continuous trade.

Example 3

If you made:

• £60,000 profit in tax year 2016 to 2017
• £60,000 profit in tax year 2017 to 2018
• £30,000 loss in tax year 2018 to 2019

1. Add £60,000 and £60,000 then deduct £30,000 loss = £90,000
   
2. Then divide £90,000 by 3

Your average trading profit for the 3 tax years would be £30,000."

There is a big loss in 2018/19 in this example. Would it really be reasonable for them to expect an even bigger loss in 2019/20 to qualify for the grant? Why pick such an example if they did, when it is very likely that there won't be an even bigger loss due to coronavirus?  Apart from very simple businesses, how many self employed people will actually know what their taxable trading profits are in 2019/20 by June? What if the coronavirus hit to their profits was mainly after 5 April 2020? The loss in 2018/19 might arise just because a large piece of equipment was purchased, on which capital allowances were claimed (another reason why these rules, and the rules for universal credit for that matter, are daft).

There are businesses like film partnerships where the precise turnover, expenses and profits for each year are known up to 15 years in advance. These businesses will not qualify for SEISS, and rightly so. But as I have said before, if you trade as a farmer and sell £10 a week of eggs to a local when you go shopping, and you can't do it now, your trade has been adversely affected by coronavirus, and you have lost profits due to coronavirus. We shall just have to see what the SEISS Treasury Directive says. Let us hope it is not as opaque as the one for CJRS.

WayneB73

Iv just watched a video from Martin Lewis saying we will be able to work as normal and still get the 80% grant for 3 months in June providing our profits are under 50k..  that’s all sorted then. 👍