McDs & MET & lockdown - submitted appeal to MET before visiting forum! bad move! pls help...

IduntExist

Thank you for the mass of information regarding "speculative invoices". I've spent the last few of days reading through everything and have learned a lot on dealing with these apparent "scams".

Unfortunately I did not visit this forum before submitting my appeal to MET parking and would like to ask for some advice, please, to make sure my next move is not another fluff up...

I made the mistake of thinking MET would listen to logic (they did not) when I submitted my initial appeal as I had proof (a receipt) that we were customers at McDonalds who had been delayed on site due to McDonalds having issues. I don't want to bore everyone with too many details but due to it taking us nearly an hour to order and receive our food we were on site for over 100 minutes according to the letter. Unfortunately we didn't know there was a 90 minute limit at the time of visiting due to their lack of signs, A point I didn't think to bring up in my appeal to MET. 

In my appeal I did admit to us being on site to visit McDonalds only and stated that we never left the site without my vehicle. I did not however say who was the driver at the time and submitted my appeal as the keeper after receiving the NTK. Given the circumstances, and not being able to find a similar case on here, I felt a post might be acceptable.

I have made some notes, based on the advice here, that I feel are relevant defences to put forward to POPLA and would like to ask an experienced POV on these points if possible please.

The first thing I would like to mention is that I have contacted McDonalds directly, as suggested here, but did it via Facebook message due to the Restaurant now being closed for the foreseeable. As expected they claimed they cannot cancel it and gave a robotic response. I also cannot visit the site to gather evidence of the lack of signs due to it being too far away from me & the current lock-down rules.

TL:DR; Summary

Got a NTK after visiting McDonalds with Family members, where we had to wait nearly an hour before getting our food due to McDs. NTK stated we stayed over 100 mins, I submitted an appeal based on logic as McDonalds caused the delay but was ignored as I hadn't checked this forum before submitting appeal. I did not mention the terrible lack of signs, admitted to being there with my vehicle and family but did not state who was driving my vehicle. Cannot contact store manager as McDs are closed. Hoping for some opinion on my appeal to POPLA.

MY POINTS

So after reading many pages of this site I do have a few points that I feel are relevant to my appeal to POPLA.

The first of course is the fact that the only signs any of us could see from the space we parked in was a small red McDonalds sign (approx 15cm x 7cm) informing us of "restrictions in place". We could not see any MET signs in the vicinity and MET have not sent proof of the signs on the NTK. There was no Obvious Signs at car park entrance either (although If there were it would be dangerous to read them given the way the car park entrance is set out)

The pictures of my car do not show any indication of who was driving nor where my vehicle was parked.

An IMPORTANT point I noticed based on the info here is regarding the date the NTK was "issued". 

As I understand it from reading para 9, Schedule 4, Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 - The NTK should have been issued, posted, and received within 14 days of the date of the alleged contravention of terms (which I maintain the driver could not have agreed to due to lack suitable signs). 

The date of issue on the NTK was more than 25 days after the listed "date of contravention" and I did not receive the letter until 5 days after the date of issue. Does this mean that the NTK is invalid and the "invoice" also void? Did I mess this up by submitting an appeal to MET as the keeper? 

Another point I have is, The time we visited was dusk and almost dark when we got there, completely when we left, so the already inadequate signs available were/are also not lit up very well. There was basic street lighting for the car park but no signs were illuminated other than the McDonalds menus. You can see in the "evidence" MET sent that my vehicles lights are on and visibility was low.

Should I also mention:

- The grace period when we were alleged to be over 100 minutes (less than 105)?

- The operator does not have authority from the landowner to issue PCNs on this land. I cannot find proof for or against this, although McDs did state in FB they have assigned a car park management company to manage some of their car parks - no specificity on places or company?!

- That I require proof that the ANPR system is reliable, accurate and recently tested?

Is it worth including the personal points regarding McDonalds delaying us placing and getting our order? I do feel it is relevant as had there been no till/cooker problems etc we would have been able to leave a lot sooner?

I will be using this post from yoyoguitar to help draft my appeal to popla, I know its not the same circumstances but I felt the points made were quite relevant esp the pofa ones: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6056961/met-parking-stansted-mcDonalds-starbucks-southgate-park

Finally, Am I right to submit a complaint to DVLA as suggested in NEWBs posts?

On a separate note: I noticed the online form that MET force you to use to submit an appeal, with all of your personal details, is not secured via SSL thus allowing attackers to intercept users data. I'm sure this could potentially a breach of GDPR and other data protection laws as the fields are mandatory. Do you think I should include this in the appeal and/or report it?

Apologies for the wall of text and thaks for reading, any help will be very much appreciated for lessening my headache!

Ralph-y

Hi and welcome to the forum

before any one starts to help ...

you need to do the first course of action ...

complain to Mc's CEO

that is by far the easiest option

Ralph

beamerguy

Best thing to say is take this step by step 
You have your homework well and the first lesson after McD's open again is never go back to any McD unless it is a drive thru ...... the seats in your car are more comfortable than McD's anyway

Signs are very important in your appeal to POPLA so can you take pictures of them.  It is fair to say that POPLA are a "dead on their feet" organisation using assessors who are useless.
If you don't win at POPLA, it's no big deal as the parking companies are getting spanked around the country

Step by step, you can come back here at any stage

Fruitcake

Use every appeal point available to you from the third post of the NEWBIES.
Don't ask if you should put it in. If you have read it or thought of it, put it in. Make the assessor read every point. Make the scammers rebut every point. You only need to win on one point. They have to win all of them.

Show us your draft before you submit it.

PoPLA codes last 32 days, but don't miss the deadline.

D_P_Dance

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP, it can cause the scammer extra costs and work, and has been known to get the charge cancelled.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully, when life gets back to normal, it will become impossible for those scammers who are left to continue their vile trade, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

IduntExist

Thank you.

beamerguy said:

first lesson after McD's open again is never go back to any McD unless it is a drive thru ...... the seats in your car are more comfortable than McD's anyway

Yep totally right, Already said to the misses I won't be going back to McD's unless they don't have a parking management company on a particular site. Won't miss much anyway, not the best food.

Fruitcake said:

Show us your draft before you submit it.

Thanks, should I post it all here as text or attach as file? (redacted of course) 

One part I would like to request some input on please?

9. Time spent on site caused by site owner and IT issues

As the keeper and as stated in my appeal [as the keeper] to MET PS, I visited McDonalds on the date stated with a small group of family. During the visit for food, it took nearly an hour to order and receive food due to a technical issue with McDonalds systems and the busy period of the restaurant. Evidence of the visit  has been submitted to MET PS by way of a receipt showing the difference in time from arrival to simply placing the order. it is unreasonable to blame a paying customer & their fellow patrons for the time spent at a restaurant, especially when the customers time spent on site is wholly reliant on the restaurants ability to function at a swift pace.

This was a "special circumstance" in which the keeper, the driver and other patrons in the group were unnecessarily held/delayed on site by the land owner / business operator, whom have contracted MET PS to issue parking charges for them. As such it is an unfair business practice to enforce action or charges in this case.

Furthermore it could potentially be considered entrapment and/or fraud for a restaurant to allow an operator to enforce terms that are unreasonable in comparison to the amount of time reasonably required to be served whilst a customer at said restaurant or for said restaurant to aid the operator in causing a breach of terms they have allowed to be set out. 

 

Is this any good? 

MistyZ

At first sight I thought the 'Time spent on site ....' bit above was a complaint to McDonalds.  I don't think it'll do any harm in a POPLA appeal, though there's very little chance that POPLA will take any notice of it, mitigation is not their thing (a lot of things aren't their thing).  

I'm not sure at all about the 'entrapment and/or fraud' bit at all, unless you have some way of confirming that there's a legal basis for that last paragraph, I think it's best left out.  And best left out of the complaint to McDonald's CEO too ... because the rest of it is just what you need to write to him.  Do that ASAP, before the POPLA appeal is submitted - it's much easier to get a PCN cancelled by landowner prior to POPLA.

IduntExist

MistyZ said:

At first sight I thought .....

Thanks, good to get an experienced second opinion. 
yeah i thought as much, It is the last point on my appeal document so will include it. I will look into complaining to CEO first then, Unfortunately i've only got a few days left until the popla code expires so may have to do them around the same time.
Good point on the legal bit, I don't have proof it was a setup. I'll Remove it. Thank you.

EDIT: I've just been through some more posts on here to find MCDs ceo email (apparently this no longer works, poss a covid thing) and seen that the BPA have this year changed the rules on grace periods! My second appeal point was on grace periods and its looking like i may now need to remove this section! Any thoughts on this?

Coupon-mad

Unfortunately i've only got a few days left until the popla code expires

No you haven't.  I bet you have another week at least? POPLA codes last 33 days and did you miss that you can bung in a 'work in progress' POPLA appeal this month and add more later:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6126237/popla-update

But the complaint to McD's CEO must must must be done FIRST, tomorrow, before POPLA. 
No more working on the POPLA appeal until you've done the complaint email...!

Leave in 'grace periods' and use my wording posted in the linked thread above, suitably adapted, but pleeease promise that you won't work on the POPLA appeal at all, until the email has been sent to McDonalds H/O!

D_P_Dance

very little chance that POPLA will take any notice of it, mitigation is not their thing (a lot of things aren't their thing).  circumstance

But this is not mitigation, this is fact/circumstance.  I do not see how PoPLA can ignore it.  

fisherjim

D_P_Dance said:

But this is not mitigation, this is fact/circumstance.  I do not see how PoPLA can ignore it.  

But you know they will ignore it, they apply the rules of engagement when it suits them i.e. If it was fair and above board, the PPC would consider and cancel on the facts of what happened, POPLA consider procedure not what happened,and they will stick with that.