Electrical work certificate

Ectophile

ComicGeek said:

lesalanos said:

Risteard said:

lesalanos said:

I've had this before.
You just need a registered electrician to come out and test everything.  If everything is ok they will issue you with an EICR report and they will notify building control too 

Will cost around £150 

Periodic inspection and testing does not and cannot replace initial verification. Furthermore your LABC (if in England or Wales) may not accept this.

All went through without issue.  Happens a lot apparently 

Doesn't mean that it's a good thing, just that they continue to get away with it. The additional problem is that Building Control don't really understand it themselves and are too quick to sign things off.

Most council Building Control departments have no expertise in electrics.  Building Regulations Part P was foisted on them by the government.  They were told that nobody but registered electricians would be doing any electrics, so it didn't matter.  As a result, if they are ever asked to inspect any electrics, they have to out-source it to a local electrician, which costs them money.

So if someone sends them a bit of paper with the name of a registered electrician on it, they are happy.  They can just file it away and say "job done".

lesalanos

Nobody is debating if it's a good thing or not.  The OP simply asked for how to resolve the issue

Risteard

lesalanos said:

Nobody is debating if it's a good thing or not.  The OP simply asked for how to resolve the issue

And my point stands that they are NOT compelled to accept an Electrical Installation Condition Report - which does not certify anything - and indeed in many areas the LABC may not accept it.

It is no accident that an Electrical Installation Condition Report does not contain the word "Certificate" whereas an Electrical Installation Certificate (or Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate) does.

Hermione_Granger

Risteard said:

It is no accident that an Electrical Installation Condition Report does not contain the word "Certificate" whereas an Electrical Installation Certificate (or Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate) does.

Really? Here's just two examples of electrical installation condition reports that contain the word "certificate".
Anyway, all that "certificate" actually means is that it's a document and that the information on it has been certified by someone to state that it is true.

Risteard

Hermione_Granger said:

Risteard said:

It is no accident that an Electrical Installation Condition Report does not contain the word "Certificate" whereas an Electrical Installation Certificate (or Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate) does.

Really? Here's just two examples of electrical installation condition reports that contain the word "certificate".
Anyway, all that "certificate" actually means is that it's a document and that the information on it has been certified by someone to state that it is true.

You have merely shown that there is software out there which erroneously uses the word. You will note that the actual document does not contain the word, and indeed the title of the Report does not contain the word. British Standard 7671 is very clear that it is not a certificate but merely a report.

Heedtheadvice

.....and just as important as the !egal aspect of the certificate....

No work can have been done, as it was not checked during installation, to confirm it is of a satisfactory standard and safe.

Any tests and 'external' visual inspection will not pick up problems such ax incorrect routing of cables, wiring too tight, joinns that are now buried, damaged sheathing or insulation, screws not tight, bad design etc.......unless of course it is apparent fron the exterior which it often is not!

Hermione_Granger

Risteard said:

Hermione_Granger said:

Risteard said:

It is no accident that an Electrical Installation Condition Report does not contain the word "Certificate" whereas an Electrical Installation Certificate (or Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate) does.

Really? Here's just two examples of electrical installation condition reports that contain the word "certificate".
Anyway, all that "certificate" actually means is that it's a document and that the information on it has been certified by someone to state that it is true.

You have merely shown that there is software out there which erroneously uses the word. You will note that the actual document does not contain the word, and indeed the title of the Report does not contain the word. British Standard 7671 is very clear that it is not a certificate but merely a report.

If the report has information on it and someone has signed to state that the information is correct, they have certified that form so by definition, it is a certificate. It doesn't have to have the word "certificate" written on it to make it a certificate.

Risteard

Hermione_Granger said:

Risteard said:

Hermione_Granger said:

Risteard said:

It is no accident that an Electrical Installation Condition Report does not contain the word "Certificate" whereas an Electrical Installation Certificate (or Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate) does.

Really? Here's just two examples of electrical installation condition reports that contain the word "certificate".
Anyway, all that "certificate" actually means is that it's a document and that the information on it has been certified by someone to state that it is true.

You have merely shown that there is software out there which erroneously uses the word. You will note that the actual document does not contain the word, and indeed the title of the Report does not contain the word. British Standard 7671 is very clear that it is not a certificate but merely a report.

If the report has information on it and someone has signed to state that the information is correct, they have certified that form so by definition, it is a certificate. It doesn't have to have the word "certificate" written on it to make it a certificate.

It contains a declaration. 

Without getting into legal semantics however, BS7671 states explicitly that it is not a certificate. In fact City & Guilds use this as a question in their Inspection and Testing qualifications whereby you get no marks if you falsely describe it as a certificate. 

An Electrical Installation Condition Report is NOT a certificate. FACT. 

It CANNOT be used to certify work. FACT. 

Hermione_Granger

Risteard said

An Electrical Installation Condition Report is NOT a certificate. FACT. 

It CANNOT be used to certify work. FACT. 

If someone has signed a form to say that any work or an inspection has been carried out, they are certifying that that it has been done, hence it is a certificate.
If I have a piece of paper that was given to me to state that I swam 100m and someone has signed this (certified it to state that it is true), it doesn't need to have "certificate" written on it to make it a certificate.

You can type "FACT" as often as you like but this doesn't mean that it's correct. The simple FACT is that anything that has been signed (or certified) is a certificate.

certificate

[ noun ser-tif-i-kit; verb ser-tif-i-keyt ]

a document serving as evidence or as written testimony, as of status, qualifications, privileges, or the truth of something.

Heedtheadvice

Give up Risteard, you will not convince the non believer, however correct you may be!

Hermione, surely you are misunderstanding the difference between a general or informal certificatethat just document something without necessarily any legal standing -in the wider sense.

For activities controlled under law, Statutory Instruments, Standards and regulations -such as for much electrical work- then specific definitions apply. So under the British Standard quoted by Risteard (and the Wiring Regulations) there are specific certificates for  minor works and installation work (MEIWC or an EIC). Then there are reports such as condition reports. If you do not believe me see the explanation of the regulations at https://www.niceic.com/find-a-contractor/electrics-explained/what-are-the-different-types-of-electrical-certifi

 
Until the digital process of doing MOTs you could have gone to a mechanic and been given a document that said "MOT Certificate" on it (I could knock one up on th PC right now!) but in fact it might not be a legally binding certificate, irrespective of the wording in the heading!

The point being made is that certain formal steps need to be made and complied with to issue an Eic or Meiwc and they contain specific declarations.

A report might incorrectly have the word certificate on it  .........but does not ensure the correct stage inspections and tests have been completed, it has a different legal standing and does not give the electrical installation owner (property owner?) confidence in an installation meeting regs, standards and law. ....any or all of those!

Indeed a report purporting to be a specific formal certificate required by Regulation intending to be misleading is ......... well criminal? or do you think it is fine?