Self employed but PAYE

Jeremy535897

Jeremy535897 said:

Probably, but never mind. I think the position will be looked at over the three years, not one, so it may be she is OK, but we really don't know any more than the gov.uk document accompanying the Chancellor's speech
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/chancellor-gives-support-to-millions-of-self-employed-individuals

I may have misunderstood what is on her tax returns. I assume they are up to date.
The question of who is employed and who is self employed in this industry is complex. I don't know how current this is, but it gives a feel for it. (I am no expert.)
https://www.crunch.co.uk/knowledge/employment/who-can-have-self-employed-status-in-the-film-television-and-production-industries/
I assume she has treated everything she has paid PAYE on as employment income, but that may not be right. In any event, my original point is that it looks as if HMRC will add up the figures for employment as declared, and self employment as declared, for the three years to 2018/19. If self employment exceeds employment, the grant should be available. If it doesn't, and she might have classified some income that should be self employment income as employment income, because the payer wrongly insisted in deducting PAYE, she might need to file an amended return (she might want to anyway if it would increase the grant), but we are moving way out of the scope for which this forum is designed.

ArJayBe

Thank you for this.
She does everything by the book. All tax returns have been filed on time as they should have been. The only PAYE was in 2018/19. She doesn't have an accountant and I think she would have filed the PAYE income as PAYE income rather than as self-employed income. I'll have a look at the link you have provided and see if she could consider putting in an amended return. Thank you very much for the link and for taking the trouble to reply, Jeremy535897.

Jeremy535897

Be very cautious. If she gets it wrong it would look like she was trying to defraud. On reflection this might be in the too dangerous to do category.

Scott1785

Ok, thanks for all the threads and.comments,.much appreciated. The situation I am in is pretty unique to the film and TV industry. I feel like I am self employed, move from production to production getting paid for a service. However it's just the way it is, I become an employee of that production even it's just for a day and pay my tax via PAYE. So under the self employed scheme I am entitled to nothing. One production I do work for most of the time. When I have studied the Furlough rules, just published today it's looks like that employer could Furlough me. I am going to ring them tomorrow and give that a spin, fingers crossed. The sad thing that might work for me as I do most of mywork for them, other who are more transitory may not be so lucky. 

ArJayBe

Jeremy535897 said:

Be very cautious. If she gets it wrong it would look like she was trying to defraud. On reflection this might be in the too dangerous to do category.

Thank you Jeremy535897. I've looked at the link you provided and it seems that, as far as HMRC is concerned, a costume maker who works on set is regarded as employed, though I don't think she had the benefits of employment. I think she is in deep trouble unless, as you thought, they look at self-employment versus employment over three years rather than what the BBC is saying (ie that it is based on what happened in 2018/19, when she earned more on a PAYE deduction scheme than she did through submitting invoices, even though she was plying her trade no differently). 
Good luck to Scott1785, I'm sorry I muscled-in on your thread. I just didn't realise the correct protocol when I did it.

Scott1785

No problem, the way we get paid in the Film and TV industry is generally OK. It ensures that people get decent rates of pay for their trade and it can stop productions trying to pay people lower rates, cash in hand etc etc. In this strangest of times it does seem to be a sector that has fallen through the net. 

Becles

It's the same for field marketing agencies. 

They all offer me calls on a pick and choose basis paid as piece rate. I pick and choose what work suits me. It's all done on a self employed basis. Some agencies pay me gross but some pay me as PAYE. I don't earn enough with each agency on PAYE to have any employment rights.

I'm now not entitled to any help because of the ones who pay me through PAYE.

Mo_tion

Hope you don't mind me butting in on this threat, but I'm in a similar situation and thought it might be worth spelling out.  I work for several companies and I invoice most companies as a free-lancer (Self employed).  However, one company insists on paying me PAYE even if for only a day and I put this on my tax form as employment.  On top of this I get some income from a house that I rent out.  For example
£6000 PAYE
£20000 Self Employed
£15000 Property
This has meant overall my 'self employment' is just less than my 'employment' and house income combined and none of my 'employment' days (PAYE) fall on the 28th Feb. so although I earn less than £50k neither self employed scheme or furlough work for me.  There doesn't seem to be any advice for someone in this situation online.

Jeremy535897

I don't think anything has changed since my last post, except an update for certain people subject to the rules in IR35 in the guidance to employers for CJRS. Remember you have to pass the 50% test in either 2018/19, or 2016/17 to 2018/19, not both:

"Your self-employed trading profits must also be less than £50,000 and more than half of your income come from self-employment. This is determined by at least one of the following conditions being true:

• having trading profits/partnership trading profits in 2018-19 of less than £50,000 and these profits constitute more than half of your total taxable income
• having average trading profits in 2016-17, 2017-18, and 2018-19 of less than £50,000 and these profits constitute more than half of your average taxable income in the same period

If you started trading between 2016-19, HMRC will only use those years for which you filed a Self-Assessment tax return."

Mo_tion

Thanks for your time responding Jeremy.  Yes that leaves me penniless whichever way I work it out unfortunately.  Doesn't seem fair and as there doesn't seem to be many of us with this particular problem, it's going to be difficult to highlight. 
I am interested how I could put these PAYE figures in on my tax return as Self employed Figures as this would make alot more sense, but not if it looks like I'm trying to defraud in any way.