Speeding fine

philb02

Not sure about that because if the NIP went to Motability, why would we then receive a reminder to reply to the NIP. As far as I am aware, she is the registered keeper but Motability hang on to the V5.

Motability say "Although we own the vehicles leased through the Motability Scheme, we are not the ‘registered keeper’. The registered keeper is the person whose name is registered with the Driver & Vehicle Licensing Agency in Section 5 of the vehicle’s log book or V5C. In the case of Motability Scheme cars, this is the customer. As the registered keeper, Scheme customers will receive, and are responsible for, any official communications such as parking and speeding tickets, and vehicle recall letters."

Looks like we'll just have to accept that as the original was lost in the post, there is no way we can prove this, and pay up.

TooManyPoints

philb02 said:

The NIP was received and returned straight away. This is the one we received dated 24/2/20 for an offence on 29/1/20, so outside the 14 days. It was a reminder and the claim is that the original was sent out the day after the offence. 

Then it's make your mind up time. First of all get out the V5C and check that all of your wife's address details are correct. Also check the "docref" date at the bottom of page 2 (I think) to make sure it predates the date of the offence. It will do if she has been the RK for some time. 

To defend this matter your wife must decline the offer of a Fixed Penalty and opt for the matter to be dealt with in court. They have six months from the date of the offence to bring court proceedings and very often take all of that. She will receive a "Single Justice Procedure Notice" (SJPN). One of the options on it will be to say she is pleading Not Guilty and ask for a court hearing. When she pleads Not Guilty she should say she is doing so on the basis that the NIP was served outside 14 days and so she cannot be convicted. However, she should read Section 1 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act. I've emphasised the important passages:
========
Requirement of warning etc. of prosecutions for certain offences

(1)Subject to section 2 of this Act, where a person is prosecuted for an offence to which this section applies, he is not to be convicted unless—

(a)he was warned at the time the offence was committed that the question of prosecuting him for some one or other of the offences to which this section applies would be taken into consideration, or

(b)within fourteen days of the commission of the offence a summons (or, in Scotland, a complaint) for the offence was served on him, or

(c)within fourteen days of the commission of the offence a notice of the intended prosecution specifying the nature of the alleged offence and the time and place where it is alleged to have been committed, was—

(i)in the case of an offence under section 28 or 29 of the [1988 c. 52.] Road Traffic Act 1988 (cycling offences), served on him,

(ii)in the case of any other offence, served on him or on the person, if any, registered as the keeper of the vehicle at the time of the commission of the offence.

(2)A notice shall be deemed for the purposes of subsection (1)(c) above to have been served on a person if it was sent by registered post or recorded delivery service addressed to him at his last known address, notwithstanding that the notice was returned as undelivered or was for any other reason not received by him.

(3)The requirement of subsection (1) above shall in every case be deemed to have been complied with unless and until the contrary is proved.

=========

Para (2) is a little misleading in that it seems to infer that to be "served" the NIP must be sent by Registered or Recorded Delivery. That is not the case. That paragraph is to cover the possibility that a registered or recorded letter is rejected by the recipient. NIPs can be served by First Class Post (the Interpretations Act provides for this). It is para (3) that is important as far as you are concerned. You can see that the burden of proof (that the NIP was not delivered) rests with your wife. The court must be satisfied, "on the balance of probabilities" (i.e. more likely than not) that the NIP was not received. It is not an easy defence to run (if it was, everybody would do it) and the chances of success will rest entirely on your wife's evidence on the day.

The cost of failure is high. The FP option will no longer be available and she will be sentenced in accordance with the sentencing guidelines. She will pay an income related fine (dependant on the speed) , a surcharge of 10% of the fine but, most significantly, prosecution costs which will almost certainly be £620 so you're looking at not much change out of £1k, even if on a modest income. As I said, it's make your mind up time.

AdrianC

Offence - 29/1/20
Deadline for s172 request sent to RK (Motability) - 14 days
Deadline for s172 to be returned by Motability, naming your wife as person responsible - 28 days
s172 lost in post to your wife.
Chase received by your wife - 27/2/20

The timings are very unlikely to be wrong. They rarely are.

Besides, it's irrelevant now - your wife admitted that she was driving on  28/2. The s172 was accepted by her.
She now has 28 days to reply to the offer of a fixed penalty, dated 2/3. I presume she's not being offered tea and biccies instead?

So her choice is to accept the £100/3pt FPN, or to go to court.

Three guesses which is the wise choice there, especially since she has admitted she was indeed driving the car at the time.

DoaM

TooManyPoints said:

philb02 said:

The NIP was received and returned straight away. This is the one we received dated 24/2/20 for an offence on 29/1/20, so outside the 14 days. It was a reminder and the claim is that the original was sent out the day after the offence. 

Then it's make your mind up time. First of all get out the V5C and check that all of your wife's address details are correct. Also check the "docref" date at the bottom of page 2 (I think) to make sure it predates the date of the offence. It will do if she has been the RK for some time. 

You may wish to read the thread again ... OP has stated at least twice that his wife does not hold a copy of the V5 document - Motability do.

philb02

Motability hold the V5 but the RK is my wife. "Although we own the vehicles leased through the Motability Scheme, we are not the ‘registered keeper’. The registered keeper is the person whose name is registered with the Driver & Vehicle Licensing Agency in Section 5 of the vehicle’s log book or V5C. In the case of Motability Scheme cars, this is the customer. As the registered keeper, Scheme customers will receive, and are responsible for, any official communications such as parking and speeding tickets, and vehicle recall letters."

Sounds like the original NIP probably lost in the post but she doesn't want to risk going to court and is going to pay up. I'm pretty sure that if we suggested something was lost in the post it wouldn't count so all a little weighted against the individual.

Thanks for the helpful comments especially TooManyPoints.

DoaM

As already stated, she would need to prove that it wasn't delivered ... such as by demonstrating that mail going astray was a regular occurrence. As it stands they will be able to prove when it was posted, and 1st class mail is deemed delivered 2 working days later unless proven otherwise. This isn't a battle she's likely to win, so the pragmatic approach makes sense.

waamo

If she is the registered keeper why doesn't she have the V5c? That doesn't make any sense. Why would she hand it over to them? 

I suspect you are wrong in your assertion that she is the registered keeper. She may be the keeper but not the registered keeper. The two things, whilst sounding the same, are legally very different and I suspect you are confusing the two.

AdrianC

The RK is the name and address on the V5C. If she was the RK, she'd have the V5C in her name to your address. That is the ONLY name and address that can be found from a registration number via DVLA.

philb02

The Motability scheme website states:

"Although we own the vehicles leased through the Motability Scheme, we are not the ‘registered keeper’. The registered keeper is the person whose name is registered with the Driver & Vehicle Licensing Agency in Section 5 of the vehicle’s log book or V5C. In the case of Motability Scheme cars, this is the customer. As the registered keeper, Scheme customers will receive, and are responsible for, any official communications such as parking and speeding tickets, and vehicle recall letters."

They don't send out the V5Cs though.

DoaM

Why are people suggesting that the OP is lying?

Although we own the vehicles leased through the Motability Scheme, we are not the ‘registered keeper’. The registered keeper is the person whose name is registered with the Driver & Vehicle Licensing Agency in Section 5 of the vehicle’s log book or V5C. In the case of Motability Scheme cars, this is the customer. As the registered keeper, Scheme customers will receive, and are responsible for, any official communications such as parking and speeding tickets, and vehicle recall letters.

https://news.motability.co.uk/scheme-news/manufacturer-recalls/ ... yes, it's a link about recalls but the premise remains the same. Also:

If you are a Motability Scheme customer, your V5c vehicle registration certificate or 'log book' is held by us so that we can tax your car automatically.

https://www.motability.co.uk/contact/request-v5c/

OP - I suggest your wife does this anyway so she has a copy for future reference.