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Armtrac/KBT/ BW Legal, LBC ***UPDATE, CLAIM DISCONTINUED****

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  • Thanks everyone for your replies! they really are disgusting scammers, it would be interesting to know how many people just pay this, i have a friend who was in the exact same position as me last year and just paid it, all £250!
    so for my defence so far i have the fact that the NTK was late, therefore, they have not followed POFA 2012, which means as i have not confirmed who the driver is the cannot hold me liable as the keeper and have no legal right to pursue me.  I feel this was a pretty basic thing for their staff to miss out on and have been chasing me either obliviously (doubt it) or more likely are just trying there luck, so all these letters and stress caused/ time out researching and writing defence etc is wasted time and personally i feel is harassment.  Could that be included in the defence also, as they had no right to pursue me in the first place? 
    For the next part of my defence i will add the abuse of process for the extra fees and double charging. 
    once my defence has been submitted is it still possible for the case to be thrown out or for BW legal to retract their claim? Or will i have to go to court now regardless? 

    Thanks again 

  • nosferatu1001
    nosferatu1001 Posts: 12,961 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Third Anniversary Name Dropper
    "which means as i have not confirmed who the driver is the cannot hold me liable as the keeper"
    Wrong way round. If you name the driver, tehn under POFA2012 they lose the right to chase the keeper. Not naming the driver means they HAVE TO comply with POFA to chase the keeper. 
    If you mean - there was no actual initial breach, then if course that goes into a defence. But if you mean - they didnt meet POFA so shouldnt be chasing you now? WEll tough. Courts wont care that theyve taken you to court when they knew they didnt meet POFA, and you already have it as a defence pojnt. 
    You will add more than that! Landowner authority and signage are ALWAYS included! ouve read this on how many defences by now?
    1) The claim MAY BE thrown out by the court, on allocation to your local court, but this is RARE
    2) Of course tehy can discontinue. Any time they like. 
  • Right ok, sorry this is a bit confusing, i've read a lot over the last few days in various forums and websites! So to confirm, even though they have not complied with POFA they can still pursue me, as the keeper, for costs? The way i have understood is that if they haven't complied with POFA then they can't legally pursue me as they don't know the driver? 
    As far as signage goes, as this was 5 years ago i have no photos or anything of any signs, the car park signage has changed since then and they've put in new machines, is this something i should ask for in my SAR? or is it up me to provide evidence of the poor signage?
  • Le_Kirk
    Le_Kirk Posts: 24,664 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    You can only ask for data about you in the SAR.  They should though, have provided all the evidence they are going to rely on when they issued the LoC (I doubt very much they did).  When it gets to witness statement (WS) time, they should supply photos of the car park at the time of the event.  Sometime you can find pictures of signs on Google street view if you click on the arrow next to where it says streetview you can change the year.
  • hound111
    hound111 Posts: 22 Forumite
    Third Anniversary 10 Posts
    edited 11 February 2020 at 5:33PM
    Le_Kirk said:
    You can only ask for data about you in the SAR.  They should though, have provided all the evidence they are going to rely on when they issued the LoC (I doubt very much they did).  When it gets to witness statement (WS) time, they should supply photos of the car park at the time of the event.  Sometime you can find pictures of signs on Google street view if you click on the arrow next to where it says streetview you can change the year.
    ok thanks, i've had a scoot round the car park in google images, the image was taken may 2015, so a month before the ticket, the signs are pretyy crap, there is a "pay and display" sign on the wall of a building, which could easily be blocked by a large vehicle. The sign has got very small text if you were driving passed it and concentrating on the road you wouldn't be able to read it, and also there is another exit out of the car park through the harbour (on foot) which shows no signs! 


  • nosferatu1001
    nosferatu1001 Posts: 12,961 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Third Anniversary Name Dropper
    You are still confused
    Back to the beginning
    1) A driver is *always* potentially liable for a parking charge (which is an alleged debt, alleged because no credit agreement exists and a court has not yet confirmed the debt) 
    2) The only way for them to make you, the KEEPER, liable for the charge, is to follow POFA2012
    3) If they do not follow POFA, then you as KEEPER are not liable.
    4) IF they have met POFA, then if YOU as KEEPER identify the driver, tehy can no longer chase the keeper.
    Where you seem to fall down is you seem to think they cant just sue you anyway. they can. And you will know that PPCs do this every. single. day. Thats because *anyone* can raise a claim against *anyone* and the court will accept it. If it isnt defended, then the court will find in favour of the claimant. 
    So, as I said - you not naming the driver isnt why they cant chase you. Of course it cant be that way round If it were, then they could NEVER chase a keeper who refused to tell them who drove- and the entire point of them getting keeper liability brpought in - a horrible law - was because keepers were not telling them the drivers name. 
    So, they can indeed sue  you. You cannot stop them doing this. You can only defend this. 
  • You are still confused
    Back to the beginning
    1) A driver is *always* potentially liable for a parking charge (which is an alleged debt, alleged because no credit agreement exists and a court has not yet confirmed the debt) 
    2) The only way for them to make you, the KEEPER, liable for the charge, is to follow POFA2012
    3) If they do not follow POFA, then you as KEEPER are not liable.
    4) IF they have met POFA, then if YOU as KEEPER identify the driver, tehy can no longer chase the keeper.
    Where you seem to fall down is you seem to think they cant just sue you anyway. they can. And you will know that PPCs do this every. single. day. Thats because *anyone* can raise a claim against *anyone* and the court will accept it. If it isnt defended, then the court will find in favour of the claimant. 
    So, as I said - you not naming the driver isnt why they cant chase you. Of course it cant be that way round If it were, then they could NEVER chase a keeper who refused to tell them who drove- and the entire point of them getting keeper liability brpought in - a horrible law - was because keepers were not telling them the drivers name. 
    So, they can indeed sue  you. You cannot stop them doing this. You can only defend this. 
    Ok 
    So, is there any significance in them sending the NTK late, therefore not meeting POFA? What does that mean for me? 
  • nosferatu1001
    nosferatu1001 Posts: 12,961 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Third Anniversary Name Dropper
    YES of course! 3) above - if the NtK was not received within the timescales set in either para 8 or para 9, then you are not liable as the keeper. 
  • YES of course! 3) above - if the NtK was not received within the timescales set in either para 8 or para 9, then you are not liable as the keeper. 
    Ok
    so if as the keeper i am not liable because of the breach of POFA, and the driver is liable, how do they prove who the driver is to pass on liability? All of the sources i have read have said that the driver is liable, and if POFA is breached and the keeper has not admitted who the driver is then they have no obligation to provide the drivers details? Therefore, a judge reading this would just say that they have no evidence of the driver from the get go and so they cannot recover the debt? Really sorry if thats completely wrong, but thats what i have got from reading various posts! thank you!
  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 41,296 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Let's try another tack.

    Ultimately the driver is responsible for his actions.
    If the PPC do not know who the driver is they can try and use the POFA to transfer the driver's liability to the keeper.
    If they fail to fulfil all the conditions of POFA then they cannot transfer the driver's liability to the keeper.

    So if they have failed to keep to the POFA rules and do not know who the driver is then they have no-one to sue.

    That of course won't stop them suing the keeper - being the only name they have.
    The keeper needs to defend himself against the allegation. 
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