HOSPEDIA bedside premium rate 0872 numbers in hospitals.

unforeseen

Ian011 said:

This is the first time the story has involved genuine premium rate numbers. 

Hospedia moved to 0872 numbers in September 2019. 

On 1 October 2019 Ofcom cut the Wholesale or Termination Rate for calls to 070 numbers to be no more than the Termination Rate charged for calls to UK mobile numbers. This is just under 0.5p per minute.

Ofcom expects retail telecoms providers to include calls to Personal Numbers starting 070 in inclusive allowances on the same basis as calls to UK mobile numbers, or otherwise charge calls to 070 numbers at the same rate as a call to a UK mobile number. 

Prior to the move to 0872 numbers in September 2019, Hospedia had been using 070 numbers for several decades.

Hospedia take 13ppm. The telcos should be the ones looking at their charges. As zagfles says, they are the ones ripping off the consumer, not Hospedia

Ian011

Before 1 July 2015 it was almost impossible to know in advance of making a call to an 084, 087, 09 or 118 number what it would cost, not unless you waded through a three hundred page PDF to find the charge for the particular block of 10 000 numbers the number you wanted to call was in. If you had a choice of providers you would have to look through a 300 page PDF for each one to compare prices to find the cheapest. Call charges for these numbers were high but both parties blamed each other for the high rates. The new two-part system ensures that both parties declare their part of the call charge.

It is important to remember that under the old scheme calls to 084 numbers were advertised as 1p to 5p per minute from a BT landline with other providers charging more, with these calls costing up to 40p per minute at that time. Likewise for 087 numbers advertised as 1p to 10p per minute from a BT landline, with other providers charging up to 50p per minute. This opaque situation was responsible for huge amounts of bill shock. BT retail call prices were artificially low. This was a result of the "NTS Retail Condition" imposed by Ofcom when BT was a monopoly provider. This stopped BT making profit on call origination. BT made their money from call termination. 

Under the new scheme, the Access Charge must be declared and is the same rate for all 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers. This makes it very easy to compare providers. The Access Charge is usually the same rate as a non-inclusive call to a landline or mobile number. For most premium rate numbers the Access Charge is a small proportion of the overall charge. It is 084 and 087 numbers where this breaks down and this is a good reason for these number ranges to be discontinued. Usage of these numbers is now banned for most purposes and most remaining usage is for scams (especially the "call connection service" scam and Wangiri scams) and for other inappropriate purposes (such as charity helplines, sales lines, and hospital bedside phone lines). 

Vast numbers of businesses have migrated to 03 numbers. With these, there is no Access Charge and no Service Charge. Calls to 03 numbers are simply inclusive in allowances on the same basis as calls to 01 and 02 numbers. 

The presence of the Service Charge means that calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers cannot be included in allowances. Calling an 084 number means the caller's phone provider having to pay out up to £4.20 per hour to the organisation called. For 087 numbers, up to £7.80 per hour is paid out.

There is a danger in reducing Access Charges without considering call charges for other number ranges. It is absurd that a situation could arise where it is cheaper to call an 084 or 087 number (with the call recipient earning up to 5p or 10p per minute) than it is to call a landline number, 03 number or mobile number. If such a situation were to arise widely we could see a massive rush for everyone to have an 084 or 087 number and we would then be in a situation where none of the calls you make are included in allowances, leading to massive phone bills for everyone. 

The two-part call charge system shines a light on the charging for 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers. It ensures that both parties declare their portion of the charge, and this has resulted in the vast majority of users of 084 and 087 numbers getting rid of these numbers. This is the way forward.  

Hospedia are ripping off the public. They have turned calling a patient in hospital into a Premium Rate Service, preying on relatives and friends of the patient at a time when they are most vulnerable. Hospedia chose to use premium rate numbers in full knowledge of both the Service Charge they have chosen to apply and the Access Charge that will be imposed by the caller's provider. Access Charges are widely published - in providers tariff sheets and elsewhere. 

Hospedia chose to use premium rate 0872 numbers just weeks before a change of Ofcom regulation reducing the wholesale charges for calling 070 numbers to be the same rate as for calls to mobile numbers. That change of regulation enables retail phone providers to include calls to 070 numbers in allowances on the same basis as calls to mobile numbers or otherwise charge calls to 070 numbers at the same rate as for calls to mobile numbers. Hospedia got rid of their 070 numbers just before this came into effect. 

giraffe69

If you accept that the charges for using this system,at least of calling in, are expensive (and I do) then surely it is voluntary? Using a mobile is an efficient way to get round the problem. The one thing this thread does is alert some people as to how much it might cost which is a good thing. If anyone waves the "inalienable right not to have a mobile" then fine but they have removed a simple alternative.
As for the earlier part of the thread which looked at food etc in hospital and what you might or might not be saving I am sure a simple system of charging x per day for food etc would release funds for more important things and you can complicate that by allowing exemptions to this scheme if you wish.

Ian011

Those who have been hit with large bills may have missed one important point. Calls to landline numbers, 03 numbers and mobile numbers from the hospital bedside phones are free. Although this may be physically difficult for the patient to action, anyone calling someone in hospital should ask the patient to hang up and call the friend or relative back. This will at least limit the exposure to just a few minutes of high call charges. 

zagfles

Ian011 said:

Under the new scheme, the Access Charge must be declared and is the same rate for all 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers. This makes it very easy to compare providers. The Access Charge is usually the same rate as a non-inclusive call to a landline or mobile number.

That's the problem!! The same "access charge" for an expensive £1.50/min service charge call to Madame Whiplash as a cheapish 1p/min call to an international callthrough, or a relatively cheap 13p/min call to a hospital bed.

Ian011 said:

The presence of the Service Charge means that calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers cannot be included in allowances. Calling an 084 number means the caller's phone provider having to pay out up to £4.20 per hour to the organisation called. For 087 numbers, up to £7.80 per hour is paid out.

So why not JUST have the service charge, and let the originating telco take say 5% of it to cover cost of collection, bad debt etc? Then charge it to the customer as a normal call (like an 03 number) plus the service charge? You know, like happens with premium rate texts for things like charity donations, competitions etc, where they say "texts cost xxx plus normal network rate".

So someone using inclusive minutes or a landline call package JUST pays the service charge, someone without inclusive minutes pays a normal call rate plus the service charge. What is wrong with that?

Ian011 said:

There is a danger in reducing Access Charges without considering call charges for other number ranges. It is absurd that a situation could arise where it is cheaper to call an 084 or 087 number (with the call recipient earning up to 5p or 10p per minute) than it is to call a landline number, 03 number or mobile number. If such a situation were to arise widely we could see a massive rush for everyone to have an 084 or 087 number and we would then be in a situation where none of the calls you make are included in allowances, leading to massive phone bills for everyone.

 You cannot get that situation if you do what I just said above! Did Ofcom not think about that? 

Ian011 said:

Hospedia are ripping off the public. They have turned calling a patient in hospital into a Premium Rate Service, preying on relatives and friends of the patient at a time when they are most vulnerable. Hospedia chose to use premium rate numbers in full knowledge of both the Service Charge they have chosen to apply and the Access Charge that will be imposed by the caller's provider. Access Charges are widely published - in providers tariff sheets and elsewhere. 

Virtually nobody knows what their telco's access charge is. I don't even know mine, they have probably changed since I last looked. They just see the declared charge of "13p/min plus your phone company's access charge" and think it'll be 13p/min plus a bit extra.

Calling it an "access charge" was very clever, did the industry suggest it to Ofcom? It implies a one-off charge, not a per min charge, so even if people did look at their telco's access charge, they might assume it's a one off 65p not 65p for every minute they're on the call.

That's the real rip off. Virtually no normal consumer will understand that the access charge could be 6 times the charge that they actually see declared. Until they get a bill.

zagfles

Ian011 said:

Those who have been hit with large bills may have missed one important point. Calls to landline numbers, 03 numbers and mobile numbers from the hospital bedside phones are free. Although this may be physically difficult for the patient to action, anyone calling someone in hospital should ask the patient to hang up and call the friend or relative back. This will at least limit the exposure to just a few minutes of high call charges. 

Of course they've missed the point! Someone with a sick or dying relative in hospital might have seen the call advertised as 13p/min plus your phone companies access charge and then just made the call thinking a 30 min call will be under a fiver. Not realising their mobile operator is going to take £15-20 on top.

The whole mobile industry relies on people not understanding tariffs. Whether it's mobile roaming charges, data usage, or premium rate numbers. Ofcom have aided and assisted their rip-offs at every stage. It was the EU not Ofcom who stepped in to end rip-off roaming charges, at least in the EU. They'll all be glad we've left.

unforeseen

Hospedia provide phones for the use of the PATIENT, not relatives or friends, and as calls to 01, 02 & 03 are free they meet that aim.

If people want to use them outside the purpose they were supplied for then they have to accept the additional costs

Ian011

zagfles said:

So why not JUST have the service charge, and let the originating telco take say 5% of it to cover cost of collection, bad debt etc? Then charge it to the customer as a normal call (like an 03 number) plus the service charge? You know, like happens with premium rate texts for things like charity donations, competitions etc, where they say "texts cost xxx plus normal network rate".

So someone using inclusive minutes or a landline call package JUST pays the service charge, someone without inclusive minutes pays a normal call rate plus the service charge. What is wrong with that?

The consultation process spanned at least April 2010 to June 2014. Did you submit those suggestions when there was an initial "call for inputs" or when the finer details were being hammered out? 

zagfles

Ian011 said:

zagfles said:

So why not JUST have the service charge, and let the originating telco take say 5% of it to cover cost of collection, bad debt etc? Then charge it to the customer as a normal call (like an 03 number) plus the service charge? You know, like happens with premium rate texts for things like charity donations, competitions etc, where they say "texts cost xxx plus normal network rate".

So someone using inclusive minutes or a landline call package JUST pays the service charge, someone without inclusive minutes pays a normal call rate plus the service charge. What is wrong with that?

The consultation process spanned at least April 2010 to June 2014. Did you submit those suggestions when there was an initial "call for inputs" or when the finer details were being hammered out? 

No, because I stupidly assumed that such an obvious solution would already have been on the list for consideration, a solution that everyone who has ever used a credit card should be aware of as it's basically the same principle. Are you seriously suggesting Ofcom never thought about it? And if I had pointed it out at the time they'd have said "duh, that's a good idea, we never thought about that".

Now that it's been made quite clear that the mobile companies are using ignorance of the "access charge" to rip people off, why aren't Ofcom changing it? When something fails, the usual thing is to change it rather than carrying on regardless. Or don't the designers of this dog's dinner want to lose face?

Murphybear

ToxicWomble said:

My point being that someone as an inpatient for let’s say a week will not pay for any food and drink during their “stay” whereas if they were at home they would be paying for their food shopping. Therefore they are essentially getting fed for free for a week and thus moaning about a few £ spent on the phone is a bit of a cheek

I was in hospital for a month a few years ago.  A very nasty infection.  When I got home one of first things I did was check my bank account (there was no internet for patients at the hospital then) and found I had saved a staggering amount of money, quite a lot of it from not having to buy food.