Motorcycle parking bay

Thinking_Allowed

I would really appreciate the forum’s opinion on this parking matter. I have looked on many parking ticket help forums and the people here seem to offer the best, most professional and educated advice. I have read all the ‘newbies’ threads but if I’ve missed a relevant one please do point me in the right direction.

1. My son’s moped was parked in a ‘motorcycles only’ bay in a car park run by Excel and sent a PCN in the post.
2. Appealed (yes, have since read a pointless waste of time), lost and now have first letter saying has been passed to debt collectors - £160 to pay.
3. Reasons for not paying:
i) Separate, signed, cross-hatched ‘motorcycles only’ bay which I, myself, have used for past 15 years. Terms and Conditions (T&Cs) state that motorcycles (M/Cs) parked in bays must pay. This is fairly normal in car parks to discourage M/Cs taking up a whole bay when they should use a dedicated bay. My, rejected, argument was that wording should state ‘M/Cs to pay even in designated M/C bay’. I’ve argued on the basis that M/Cs never pay –in our area they are free in residents only bays, parking meters, other private car parks and all local authority car parks.
ii) T&Cs state ticket to be displayed ‘inside car windscreen’. No instructions on how to display on a M/C. Westminster Council is the only parking authority, as far as I’m aware, that charges M/Cs and that is by phone and reg only. Nowhere expects a ticket to stay-put on a bike.
iii) My son was using a local gym which issues exemption tickets for the car park. These are easy to scan, copy and reuse, and therefore not suitable for leaving on a M/C as they would be stolen and cloned. I have an email from the company stating they would not wish their tickets to be used in a vulnerable location.
iv) I have been unable to get a reply from Savills whom I believe own the car park.

My questions, which I’d really appreciate being put right on in preparation for court, are:

1. Am I correct in thinking that Contract law states that ‘all contract terms and notices must be transparent’? Further it states ‘not only must they contain easy-to-understand, legible and plain English but the wording used must also allow people to make informed choices’? If the operator believes they have used unambiguous wording; then this clearly amounts to entrapment?
2. The IPC ACCREDITED OPERATOR SCHEME CODE OF PRACTICE, v.6 1st April 2017, page 24, PART E Schedule 1 – Signage, Other Signs part 5, states ‘Have clear and intelligible wording and be designed such that it is clear to the reasonable driver’. Signs clearly show only instructions for cars and no instructions on how to display a ticket securely on a M/C. My belief as a reasonable driver, albeit M/C rider, would be justified in thinking unless otherwise stated a designated M/C bay would be free? I have it in the back of my brain that there is a legal phrase (precedent) for acceptance due to common (majority) understanding?!
3. Since this incident (one of my son’s friend’s father is currently fighting two tickets on the same day) we have talked to other wardens. They have stated that there was an over zealous new warden who has since been moved and that they would not ticket in the bay. Excel has rejected this as hearsay, and we would not be able to prove this in court without getting names of wardens to testify – which is unfair regarding their jobs. Am I over thinking that I can ask for Excel company records to show how many tickets have been issued for that M/C bay monthly, for example, six months either side of the date of the ticket? Not very likely they would be true anyway?
4. Hopefully my arrogance in believing I’m right will sustain me through court as I do wish to fight this and get them to change their signs – both if I win or lose. However, at the back of my mind, knowing how saying the wrong word at the wrong time can turn things so easily I’m not sure I wish this to reflect on my son. Although Excel ‘demand’ a statement if you are ‘representing’ the driver; my belief is that since he is 16 (legally a child?) I do not need anyone’s permission to act on his behalf?
5. With regard to the above; research has suggested that a 16-year-old cannot enter into a legally binding contract? I have it in writing from Excel that my son has entered into a contract. Also, that parents cannot be held liable for any contract entered into by a 16-year-old? But can later be taken to court once 18?
6. Have already suggested that I will be charging for my time which has been rejected! Is this feasible as I wish to go on the attack or counter-claim?
7. Last question!!!! Research suggests that a 16-year-old cannot be taken to the small claims court? Once they put in their application the court will automatically reject it? Which would be a shame as I wish to prove Excel are wrong.

Hoping to take this as far as possible, once won, with complaints to MPs, local council, shopping centre, Excel employers etc.

If you got this far – thank you for reading.:T For those who may be able to help – thank you in advance – really appreciated.

Thinking_Allowed

OK - so I must be the pariah of the board - no replies

After reading other threads, where peeps trying to help ask for more details, thought I put everything down to start with!

Anyway, moving on..........and simplifying........any chance any legal beagles could confirm:
a) a 16 year-old cannot enter into a legally binding contract, and
b) a 16 year-old cannot be taken to small claims court.

Ta!

Umkomaas

I don't think anyone is ignoring your post. If it's not spotted by someone able to respond pretty quickly, the thread falls rapidly down the forum pages, and won't resurface to the top without a comment being made. Your latest comment has resurrected it.

I think you have a fundamental legal issue that needs dealing with before you start. We really aren't a legal forum in order to give you a legally sound answer. But the LegalBeagles forum is a much better bet to get that definitive answer.

Come back once you've got that and see where that takes us.

https://legalbeagles.info/forums/

KeithP

Thinking_Allowed wrote: »

Anyway, moving on..........and simplifying........any chance any legal beagles could confirm:
a) a 16 year-old cannot enter into a legally binding contract, and
b) a 16 year-old cannot be taken to small claims court.

Ta!

I think you'll find that a 16 year old can enter into a contract. However, the other party may have difficulty enforcing the terms of that contract.

All the other party has to do is wait until you are 18 years old and then try enforcing the contract.


But as Umkomaas says, check that out with LegalBeagles.

Fruitcake

I doubt you will get anywhere regarding the age of the rider. If they can form a contract with the DVLA by obtaing a driving licence and taxing the vehicle, form a contract with the Ministry of Transport by obtaining an MoT certificate (if applicable) and if they can form a contract with an insurance company, then I suggest they can form a contract in a car park.

As for displaying a parking ticket, I used to use a second tax disc holder in by biking days for this very purpose. It may however not be big enough to display the whole of an exemption letter from the gym.

Was the initial appeal made by the driver or keeper? An initial appeal should always be made, but not a second stage appeal where IPC members are concerned.

Do you have pics of the site and signage? Do any of the signs mention VCS?

I don't see how your argument that Ts and Cs must state that charges apply to M/Cs will fly. The assumption should always be, everyone pays irrespective of the type of motor vehicle, age, sex, ability/disability of driver unless there is a specific exemption.

Debt collectors can be ignored. Post 4 of the NEWBIES explains why it is safe to do so.

You/the keeper are now in ignore mode unless you/they get real court papers. Come back to this thread of that happens.

Coupon-mad

See you in 2020 on this thread, when they sue the keeper, as that is when you win!

Thinking_Allowed

Getting used to this forum malarkey - need to find the setting which notifies me when somebody replies as only just spotted replies - thank you for your time and trouble.

Umkomaas - thanks for the heads up on forum workings and yes, I will post on LegalBeagles - I think that is where I got my info from; albeit a different case.

KeithP - I believe from my research that you can only sue a 16 year-old when the goods/services provided are 'necessities for life'. Parents are only liable if they have stood guarantor on a contract. And yes, they can re-sue once 18 but you can offset that by informing them in some legalese to 'bog-off'.

Fruitcake - gulp, sounds plausible re-contracts. I have loads of pics of the site and signs, and pages of appeal. I only read not to bother with IPC after I had done it! As everybody says - utterly pointless. What pics would you like to see? Never had any use to display anything in a secure manner in 40 years of biking.

My objection about paying is solely based on never having ever paid for parking in a motorcycle bay. I agree that they are entitled do whatever they like but my argument is that if they go against 'normal practice' then it should be spelt out in big letters - and information should be supplied on how to securely display a ticket - especially when you've not had the forethought to bring a secure holder with you.

Not sure what we have admitted to re keeper/owner - a friend of mine made the mistake of saying he is representing his son and has had to jump through hoops to 'prove' his guardianship. As far as I was aware as under 18 I need nobody's permission to speak on his behalf. We must have admitted to whatever they demand to proceed to appeal.

What is VCS?

Coupon-mad - received the final demand with the deadline of 19th December - not engaged with them since losing appeal. Have since found out a friend's son fighting two tickets and is at the stage where Excel has demanded proof of income ready for court. None of our kids have income so he was going to fill it in but have suggested he does nothing. Theoretically he'll be in court before us. There are three of us fighting this now.

The_Deep

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP, it can cause the scammer extra costs and work, and has been known to get the charge cancelled.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.[/FONT][/FONT]

Thinking_Allowed

I've tried finding out the land owner (is a shopping centre) allegedly nobody knows - even the local council! One suggestion I did contact but they did not reply.

Was going to complain to my MP but we have a new one who only had three agendas she fought on. One of which was a curb on speeding and 'noisy' motorcycles. Our local police also just ran a social media vote for people to say what they wished the police to focus on. Choices were moped nuisance or arsonists - guess what won?! Think I'd be barking up the wrong tree.

Half_way

I've tried finding out the land owner (is a shopping centre)

Have you tried Google? if tis a shopping centre then these places have owners of some sort, there isi usualy a website with glossy pdfs on how great their development is how many units they have and so on


Where is this shopping centre? some places pop up on here frequently and the advice can be tailored as to how to deal with them

Thinking_Allowed

Thanks Half_way - feel free to Google "Dukes Walk Shopping Centre, Waterlooville PO7 7HS" as I've drawn a blank. Most shops have no idea and the biggest, Waitrose, said it was Savills - who I found out had a new a parking director, who came from one of the private cowboys, and then he left - with no replacement. Then I tried general contact with no reply.