Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Martyn1981

Potentially huge breaking news for BEV buyers in the EU (NNNOOOOOOoooooo!!!!!!), possibly even VAT exemption.

Electric cars to get a boost in Europe as part of recovery plan, VAT exemption considered

There’s currently a wide effort to involve electric car incentives in recovery plans around the world and in Europe, it might actually work.

In the US, Democrats have been trying to include electric vehicles and renewable energy as part of the economic recovery packages, but they haven’t had much success.

There are similar efforts in Europe that appear more likely to go through.

The European Union is considering to help automakers with a stimulus package that would boost electric vehicle sales – leaving diesel and gasoline vehicles behind.

michaels

Martyn1981 said:

Potentially huge breaking news for BEV buyers in the EU (NNNOOOOOOoooooo!!!!!!), possibly even VAT exemption.

Electric cars to get a boost in Europe as part of recovery plan, VAT exemption considered

There’s currently a wide effort to involve electric car incentives in recovery plans around the world and in Europe, it might actually work.

In the US, Democrats have been trying to include electric vehicles and renewable energy as part of the economic recovery packages, but they haven’t had much success.

There are similar efforts in Europe that appear more likely to go through.

The European Union is considering to help automakers with a stimulus package that would boost electric vehicle sales – leaving diesel and gasoline vehicles behind.

Of course we know where all the subsidies will go and it will not be into the pockets of the purchasers.  However if it means the subsidies paid to keep the car manufacturers solvent also encourage them to switch to greener vehicles then it is a win.

michaels

Martyn1981 said:

michaels said:

Martyn1981 said:

Many posters on here have mentioned the BiK benefits of going BEV, so here is a great comparison article for those considering a BEV company car. Don't be put off by the detailed breakdown focusing on comparable £95k cars, towards the end it does give total savings for TM3 v's BMW 330 M sport, and Nissan Leaf v's Ford Focus.

Choosing An Electric Car In UK Offers Huge Financial Savings

A new report from Alan James of Expert Alliance backs up the Bank of America Merrill Lynch study and presents the findings in a compelling way. James shows that, assuming 45,000 miles driven over 3 years, income over £50,000 for an employee receiving the car via a remuneration package (typical in the UK), a Tesla Model S Performance would save the employee £41,386 and the employer £14,278 over three years compared to a non-electric car with the same price tag. This comparison can be made for other models that are not so expensive, as Bank of America Merrill Lynch showed previously, but the Model S comparison does a great job of highlighting how much benefit there is to going electric in the UK today.

Which is great for EV owners especially model S and X but I'm not sure this is how we should be spending limited tax payer funds....

Sorry, but we can't give it all to FF's and nuclear. Some has to go to industries that don't hide their true costs under the rug (externalities).

Ok - but if as a gov you have 80k of green subsidies to hand out I can think of better (for the environment) ways to share it out than by spending all of it on making a single Model X or Etron or whatever 80k cheaper....

Solarchaser

joefizz said:

Solarchaser said:

Labour Party, dunno mate, they died in Scotland about 5 years ago, surprised you take note of them in NI tbh.

However I take (slight) offence to your suggestion that EV's and home batts are for rich folk.
I type this from a council housing estate... or scheme as us Scots call it. 

I bought a 3-4 year old EV for a similar price to a similar sized 3-4 year old ice car, so not because I'm rich.
In doing so I've saved £600 a year in petrol and yet done double the mileage (so you could argue saved £1200) not to mention no road tax saving £200 odds, and no breakdowns (so far).
So in about another 2-3 years it will have paid for itself.

I think a socially responsible council/government should fund solar and solar thermal on low income household rooves as a way to reduce heating bills.

Solar diverters, yeah why not, seems a great way to .... save money ... if you already have a tank.

And the smart plugs you get now can do the same thing with grid excess, heat your hot water tank to save on heating bills.
I also think in addition to solar, low income /Council homes should be fitted with batteries and be able to use tou tariffs to their advantage. 

So for me the question would be, do I want to spend 10kwh on electricity and get 10kwh of heat, or spend 10kwh on hydrogen and get.... maybe 7kwh of heat?

Again, if all the more efficient tech is full, and you still have excess, then absolutely fill the less efficient tech, but to do it the other way round.... well its not green, and its not ethical imo

Unfortunately unlike yourselves in Scotland we have no say in who the government who runs the country is. Without a working assembly its a nightmare trying to get stuff done or even on a par with the rest of the UK. Strangely enough the assembly fell over a 'green' issue. So yes, its all noise but it shows the step in the direction things are going.

Yeah, well used to the word scheme, do a lot of travel across and back to Scotland and yes I was making a generalisation but the figures back it up. It was one of the lesser arguments against the greens (who I almost stood for in the last election) that green subsidies generally subsidise the wealthy. The Norwegian studies on EV use highlighted this extensively.

I take your point about the used EV, I can counter by saying Ive just spent 500 quid on my 13 year old diesel changing timing belt all front suspension, outer CV joints, wheel bearings and all round brakes. Short of overhauling the turbo thats the next 3-5 years of MOT failures covered (bodywork is sound). Of course I did all the work myself for that price and there is the environmental cost of making the parts and running the car at reduced mileage but with the energy improvements at home the difference in my annual overall fossil fuel amount (not bill) is less. Not zero admittedly but less. It will be even less now with covid and the ebike (really like them, think they will be a good part of the future, even in a dull, grey, rainy rock like here). Whats my point, well I consider that to be eco, keeping a servicable vehicle on the road and seeing it out to the end of its serviceable life (only 80k miles on it, engine should be good for 250 in which point it will probably outlast me!)  Thats been my argument throughout the history of my participation in this thread, its not black and white, there are many many ways to be eco and I just dont buy the everyone buy new EVs narrative pushed by the car industry (and others) as being the 'only' solution as yours and mine shows.

Totally agree with you on the council bit, I remember reading a stat which said that in up to 5 years time half of all council tax/rates will go towards pensions... Hence the buying up commercial property by some to pay for that increasing bill, whereas if they had installed free solar and hot water and gave it at a reduced cost (or even free and use the excess for income generation) then they would be on a winner all round. Utility companies wont like that though and you can see what happened to BTs share price when Labour (sorrry to bring that back up again) said they were going to give free broadband and part nationalise it again (funny though rumours again abound of selling off openreach so making it easier to nationalise... hmm...). Saw in the investment thread that someone had noticed that utilities do well in a recession, well ask yourself this, what do people actually need at the minute, water, heat, electricity, broadband. Imagine what would have happened if there was no broadband... Only key workers and those living in rural areas actually need a car at the minute. If delivery companies continue to ramp up then that allows for the argument that the majority (yes people on here will give exceptions) of people wont need a car. Ive been working on mine and using the ebike, wouldnt be happy about doing that in winter though...

I find your last argument a strange one, because it conflates efficiencies of use with other issues. If all the energy you use is being generated from green sources (and if nationalised, then free to use or at a discount rate) then what does it matter about the efficiency of the chain?  Ive been at a conference where various efficiencies of local storage have been mooted and few of them were over 40% but it didnt seem to matter because the alternate was turning off wind generation at times of peak or heavy output and You already state that its better to use different types of storage to harness all the excess capacity (rather than just turning it off which we both agree is a complete waste) so essentially we are just arguing about the economics and political aspects.

Haha I see why you have linked the cash for ash as an green issue, but really it's just straight forward corruption,  which has always been a problem in ... i was gonna say British politics, but realistically,  just politics worldwide. 

My ev replaced a 15 year old (at that time) petrol car, that I had spent over £1000 on in its previous year, replacing... pretty much all the stuff you listed tbh, though timing chain, was too late, and resulted in a head rebuild and 16 bent valves... let me tell you, small vag group engines are a real pita to strip down and rebuild, hidden bolts a plenty.

The truth is at that point ev was a big leap for me, im a petrol head first and foremost, not an ev evangelist. 
I still have my track car and in no way plan to replace it with an ev, you could argue my solar and ev is to offset my gas guzzler.

I 100% agree its no-where near green to scrap a perfectly working vehicle.... but tbh I don't think I've ever seen anyone on this forum suggest it, so to make that your point is the very definition of a strawman.
I say that not as a dig, but as a point of confusion,  as you were accusing me of strawmanning... much to my confusion. 

Most people don't need a car, agreed.
If public transport was better, and with the arrival of pods in the near future, im sure personal ownership will reduce.
I will always have 2 most likely,  1 for fun stuff and one for work (key worker).

My last argument,  is very very simple.
If you an excess, use it, don't curtail it... im certain we are agreed on that.
What we are not agreed on is, I say fill the most efficient storage first, as that makes the most efficient use of the excess, you say fill the least efficient first, or at the same time, and that makes no sense to me at all, i really don't see that as political,  its not batt storage is capitalist and hydrogen is socialist.... its purely logical, that the most efficient storage makes the best use of the excess.

If I have 10kw of excess electric, I can store in a battery and reuse at 90% or 9kw of energy (charge and discharge) or hydrogen at 40% or 4kw (conversion then burning) it makes logical sense to do batteries first.

Martyn1981

michaels said:

Martyn1981 said:

michaels said:

Martyn1981 said:

Many posters on here have mentioned the BiK benefits of going BEV, so here is a great comparison article for those considering a BEV company car. Don't be put off by the detailed breakdown focusing on comparable £95k cars, towards the end it does give total savings for TM3 v's BMW 330 M sport, and Nissan Leaf v's Ford Focus.

Choosing An Electric Car In UK Offers Huge Financial Savings

A new report from Alan James of Expert Alliance backs up the Bank of America Merrill Lynch study and presents the findings in a compelling way. James shows that, assuming 45,000 miles driven over 3 years, income over £50,000 for an employee receiving the car via a remuneration package (typical in the UK), a Tesla Model S Performance would save the employee £41,386 and the employer £14,278 over three years compared to a non-electric car with the same price tag. This comparison can be made for other models that are not so expensive, as Bank of America Merrill Lynch showed previously, but the Model S comparison does a great job of highlighting how much benefit there is to going electric in the UK today.

Which is great for EV owners especially model S and X but I'm not sure this is how we should be spending limited tax payer funds....

Sorry, but we can't give it all to FF's and nuclear. Some has to go to industries that don't hide their true costs under the rug (externalities).

Ok - but if as a gov you have 80k of green subsidies to hand out I can think of better (for the environment) ways to share it out than by spending all of it on making a single Model X or Etron or whatever 80k cheaper....

I'm sure we all could, but it's a bit of a shame you've decided to focus on the extreme end to spin a negative angle against a pro green policy. Ho hum.

Martyn1981

michaels said:

Martyn1981 said:

Potentially huge breaking news for BEV buyers in the EU (NNNOOOOOOoooooo!!!!!!), possibly even VAT exemption.

Electric cars to get a boost in Europe as part of recovery plan, VAT exemption considered

There’s currently a wide effort to involve electric car incentives in recovery plans around the world and in Europe, it might actually work.

In the US, Democrats have been trying to include electric vehicles and renewable energy as part of the economic recovery packages, but they haven’t had much success.

There are similar efforts in Europe that appear more likely to go through.

The European Union is considering to help automakers with a stimulus package that would boost electric vehicle sales – leaving diesel and gasoline vehicles behind.

Of course we know where all the subsidies will go and it will not be into the pockets of the purchasers.  However if it means the subsidies paid to keep the car manufacturers solvent also encourage them to switch to greener vehicles then it is a win.

So removing the VAT from a BEV won't save the purchaser any money?
I thought the subsidies were to encourage EV's, not necessarily to protect any given company. Couldn't it be argued, quite easily, that changes such as these would utterly destroy any company that doesn't move away from petrol and diesel as they would see sales tumble.
Could even argue that it's green and ethical to promote EV's.

Martyn1981

Solarchaser said:

My last argument,  is very very simple.
If you an excess, use it, don't curtail it... im certain we are agreed on that.
What we are not agreed on is, I say fill the most efficient storage first, as that makes the most efficient use of the excess, you say fill the least efficient first, or at the same time, and that makes no sense to me at all, i really don't see that as political,  its not batt storage is capitalist and hydrogen is socialist.... its purely logical, that the most efficient storage makes the best use of the excess.

If I have 10kw of excess electric, I can store in a battery and reuse at 90% or 9kw of energy (charge and discharge) or hydrogen at 40% or 4kw (conversion then burning) it makes logical sense to do batteries first.

I know you get this, but can I throw out some example numbers for anyone still confused, as storage is so key to high RE penetration, and it's important to explain that different types of storage (short v's long) will be complimentary, not competing directly for the same market.
So, I set up Mart's Hydrogen Storage Ltd (MHS Ltd). My facility has a 30% efficiency for leccy to H2 to leccy. I see the price of leccy fall to £30MWh and expect it to peak later at £100MWh. But if I buy (say) 10MWh at £30/MWh it'll cost me £300, but I'll only have 3MWh to sell (10MWh @30% efficiency) at £100/MWh, and receive my £300 back. But this is without including all the fixed and variable costs of building my facility, and running it.

So I have to sit back and wait for the prices to fall below £30 and rise above £100.

But as I watch the price fall to £30, I then see it stabilise as new demand enters the market. It's SBBS plc (Solarchaser's Big Battery Storage) buying up cheap leccy. You buy 10MWh at £300 total, and leave nothing for me.

And when I want to sell and need a high price, I see it heading for £100+, then "damn it" the price stabilises as a new supplier enters the market, it's flipping SBBS again, selling 9MWh to the grid for £900 at that peak price (the earlier purchase 90% efficiency).
Now, I don't know what the real margin needed is to make battery storage arbitrage work, but clearly it will always get in the way of H2 storage until 'economic large scale battery deployment' has been maxed out. Only then can I step in, when SBBS is full (at low prices) or empty (at high prices).
But even that argument might be questionable, as large scale storage facilities will need large scale grid connections, perhaps sited at old FF powerstations. But, if H2 can only operate when batts don't, then they are not competing, and won't supply/draw at the same time, so just as I go to set up MHS Ltd, what do I find, SBBS are rolling out H2 storage on their site making dual use of the grid connections, and undercutting me again.

Damn you SBBS!!!!

Joking aside, only when economical batts are maxed out, and economical H2 for leccy support is maxed out, will there then be economical supplies of H2 for other uses, otherwise the price of that H2 and transportation will make HFCV's uncompetitive against BEV's.

At least that's my thoughts, are they close to yours?

Solarchaser

As the future CEO of SBBS enterprises,  I concur. 

Side note , I laughed out loud.

I think.. and I may be wrong, that Joe is looking at Hydrogen as a replacement for natural gas rather than leccy, and so his view is gas may be needed when leccy isn't.

And so i guess if you had 75% leccy storage full, but only 5% gas, then from a customer comfort point of view, you would divert leccy to making Hydrogen rather than fill the last 25% of leccy.

But that's just my guess.
I'd certainly never view them on parity personally 

michaels

But as the analyst at MHS Ltd I would point out to the boss that come November the battery store will be empty and the market will spike to 150 so any energy we can purchase at less than 40 and store will make us profit in the end

Solarchaser

thats where SBBS would advise that we expect to see lots of overnight excess wind  in November