Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Martyn1981

Opportunity to support BEV's, lower emission vehicles and maybe small ICE's, but what will we see?

Carmakers press for EU and UK subsidies after slump in demand

Carmakers are negotiating with the EU and UK for subsidies to help boost demand for new vehicles, but campaigners are concerned that the stimulus could end up paying for pollution unless emissions restrictions are imposed.

The carmakers argue that subsidies would help kickstart demand as lockdown measures ease and factories reopen, preventing tens of thousands of job losses amid a global slump in car orders.

Bosses such as BMW’s chief executive, Oliver Zipse, have publicly called for grant support to apply across traditional internal combustion engines as well as battery-powered cars and hybrids.

The heads of European carmakers including BMW, Daimler, Fiat Chrysler and Jaguar Land Rover discussed the plans last week with Frans Timmermans, the European commission’s executive vice-president for the green deal. The carmakers pushed for a Europe-wide scheme part-funded from the EU budget.

Last month Timmermans backed tying carbon dioxide emission limits to any subsidy package, but the carmakers have called for a coordinated stimulus across EU countries that would apply to all cars that meet the Euro 6d standard, effectively meaning any new car would be eligible.

Martyn1981

Some fun factoids in this short and sweet article (and remember the US is hardly the cleanest grid):

Electric Vehicles Are Cleaner Than Gasoline Vehicles (New Fact Sheet)

Using the most recent data available, the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) calculated the total emissions for refueling and driving gasoline and electric vehicles and found that the average EV produces global warming pollution equal to a gasoline vehicle that gets 88 miles per gallon (mpg) — significantly better than the most efficient gasoline car available in the United States today (58 mpg) and far cleaner than the average new gasoline car (31 mpg) or truck (21 mpg) (EPA 2020a; EPA 2020b).

Our current estimate for EV emissions is almost 10 percent lower than our previous estimate two years ago (Reichmuth 2018). And 94 percent of people in the United States now live where driving an EV produces less emissions than a gasoline car that gets 50 mpg.

As the electricity grid continues to get cleaner, EVs — both new and used — will get cleaner as well.

joefizz

Solarchaser said:

Labour Party, dunno mate, they died in Scotland about 5 years ago, surprised you take note of them in NI tbh.

However I take (slight) offence to your suggestion that EV's and home batts are for rich folk.
I type this from a council housing estate... or scheme as us Scots call it. 

I bought a 3-4 year old EV for a similar price to a similar sized 3-4 year old ice car, so not because I'm rich.
In doing so I've saved £600 a year in petrol and yet done double the mileage (so you could argue saved £1200) not to mention no road tax saving £200 odds, and no breakdowns (so far).
So in about another 2-3 years it will have paid for itself.

I think a socially responsible council/government should fund solar and solar thermal on low income household rooves as a way to reduce heating bills.

Solar diverters, yeah why not, seems a great way to .... save money ... if you already have a tank.

And the smart plugs you get now can do the same thing with grid excess, heat your hot water tank to save on heating bills.
I also think in addition to solar, low income /Council homes should be fitted with batteries and be able to use tou tariffs to their advantage. 

So for me the question would be, do I want to spend 10kwh on electricity and get 10kwh of heat, or spend 10kwh on hydrogen and get.... maybe 7kwh of heat?

Again, if all the more efficient tech is full, and you still have excess, then absolutely fill the less efficient tech, but to do it the other way round.... well its not green, and its not ethical imo

Unfortunately unlike yourselves in Scotland we have no say in who the government who runs the country is. Without a working assembly its a nightmare trying to get stuff done or even on a par with the rest of the UK. Strangely enough the assembly fell over a 'green' issue. So yes, its all noise but it shows the step in the direction things are going.

Yeah, well used to the word scheme, do a lot of travel across and back to Scotland and yes I was making a generalisation but the figures back it up. It was one of the lesser arguments against the greens (who I almost stood for in the last election) that green subsidies generally subsidise the wealthy. The Norwegian studies on EV use highlighted this extensively.

I take your point about the used EV, I can counter by saying Ive just spent 500 quid on my 13 year old diesel changing timing belt all front suspension, outer CV joints, wheel bearings and all round brakes. Short of overhauling the turbo thats the next 3-5 years of MOT failures covered (bodywork is sound). Of course I did all the work myself for that price and there is the environmental cost of making the parts and running the car at reduced mileage but with the energy improvements at home the difference in my annual overall fossil fuel amount (not bill) is less. Not zero admittedly but less. It will be even less now with covid and the ebike (really like them, think they will be a good part of the future, even in a dull, grey, rainy rock like here). Whats my point, well I consider that to be eco, keeping a servicable vehicle on the road and seeing it out to the end of its serviceable life (only 80k miles on it, engine should be good for 250 in which point it will probably outlast me!)  Thats been my argument throughout the history of my participation in this thread, its not black and white, there are many many ways to be eco and I just dont buy the everyone buy new EVs narrative pushed by the car industry (and others) as being the 'only' solution as yours and mine shows.

Totally agree with you on the council bit, I remember reading a stat which said that in up to 5 years time half of all council tax/rates will go towards pensions... Hence the buying up commercial property by some to pay for that increasing bill, whereas if they had installed free solar and hot water and gave it at a reduced cost (or even free and use the excess for income generation) then they would be on a winner all round. Utility companies wont like that though and you can see what happened to BTs share price when Labour (sorrry to bring that back up again) said they were going to give free broadband and part nationalise it again (funny though rumours again abound of selling off openreach so making it easier to nationalise... hmm...). Saw in the investment thread that someone had noticed that utilities do well in a recession, well ask yourself this, what do people actually need at the minute, water, heat, electricity, broadband. Imagine what would have happened if there was no broadband... Only key workers and those living in rural areas actually need a car at the minute. If delivery companies continue to ramp up then that allows for the argument that the majority (yes people on here will give exceptions) of people wont need a car. Ive been working on mine and using the ebike, wouldnt be happy about doing that in winter though...

I find your last argument a strange one, because it conflates efficiencies of use with other issues. If all the energy you use is being generated from green sources (and if nationalised, then free to use or at a discount rate) then what does it matter about the efficiency of the chain?  Ive been at a conference where various efficiencies of local storage have been mooted and few of them were over 40% but it didnt seem to matter because the alternate was turning off wind generation at times of peak or heavy output and You already state that its better to use different types of storage to harness all the excess capacity (rather than just turning it off which we both agree is a complete waste) so essentially we are just arguing about the economics and political aspects.

joefizz

ABrass said:

It'll be interesting to see if Xpeng can produce them in significant numbers. So far they seem to be a very small manufacturer.

The FSD hardware isn't that important, it's the software that is still lacking. For that Tesla, with nearly a million units in the road, most of which are able to contribute to training the software, is in a pretty good and unique position.

As I mentioned previously, this was always going to happen. Scary thing for Tesla that I already highlighted here is that their bailout loan in December (which enabled them to show profit) was Yuan based...
Now China pretty much owns that factory.
Hardware was never going to be an issue, once its out live you can deconstruct, x-ray, etc. As mentioned the patents being out there didnt really matter as once the chinese got a hold of it it would be copeid anyway. Firmware is harder to reverse engineer but it is doable and once it is its a good baseline.

The question then becomes comparing the functionality vs price and thats always the key. People will pay more for more functionality, people will pay less for less. Up until now there hasnt been a real choice on price point but its a different world now and how cheaply the chinese may be able to make something may not matter soon.

If nothing does change then people wont care if their cheap ev is made using electricity from coal power stations, as long as its cheap.

Martyn1981

I don't know if anyone else has been watching the series of Tesla Model Y teardown vids by Sandy Munro (about 40 of them), but regardless this video giving a summing up is worth a watch, especially with the comparisons to the TM3 teardown.

Model Y E40: Mega Wrap Up Episode - Top 10 Takeaways and Future Plans

Martyn1981

Many posters on here have mentioned the BiK benefits of going BEV, so here is a great comparison article for those considering a BEV company car. Don't be put off by the detailed breakdown focusing on comparable £95k cars, towards the end it does give total savings for TM3 v's BMW 330 M sport, and Nissan Leaf v's Ford Focus.

Choosing An Electric Car In UK Offers Huge Financial Savings

A new report from Alan James of Expert Alliance backs up the Bank of America Merrill Lynch study and presents the findings in a compelling way. James shows that, assuming 45,000 miles driven over 3 years, income over £50,000 for an employee receiving the car via a remuneration package (typical in the UK), a Tesla Model S Performance would save the employee £41,386 and the employer £14,278 over three years compared to a non-electric car with the same price tag. This comparison can be made for other models that are not so expensive, as Bank of America Merrill Lynch showed previously, but the Model S comparison does a great job of highlighting how much benefit there is to going electric in the UK today.

michaels

Martyn1981 said:

Many posters on here have mentioned the BiK benefits of going BEV, so here is a great comparison article for those considering a BEV company car. Don't be put off by the detailed breakdown focusing on comparable £95k cars, towards the end it does give total savings for TM3 v's BMW 330 M sport, and Nissan Leaf v's Ford Focus.

Choosing An Electric Car In UK Offers Huge Financial Savings

A new report from Alan James of Expert Alliance backs up the Bank of America Merrill Lynch study and presents the findings in a compelling way. James shows that, assuming 45,000 miles driven over 3 years, income over £50,000 for an employee receiving the car via a remuneration package (typical in the UK), a Tesla Model S Performance would save the employee £41,386 and the employer £14,278 over three years compared to a non-electric car with the same price tag. This comparison can be made for other models that are not so expensive, as Bank of America Merrill Lynch showed previously, but the Model S comparison does a great job of highlighting how much benefit there is to going electric in the UK today.

Which is great for EV owners especially model S and X but I'm not sure this is how we should be spending limited tax payer funds....

Martyn1981

michaels said:

Martyn1981 said:

Many posters on here have mentioned the BiK benefits of going BEV, so here is a great comparison article for those considering a BEV company car. Don't be put off by the detailed breakdown focusing on comparable £95k cars, towards the end it does give total savings for TM3 v's BMW 330 M sport, and Nissan Leaf v's Ford Focus.

Choosing An Electric Car In UK Offers Huge Financial Savings

A new report from Alan James of Expert Alliance backs up the Bank of America Merrill Lynch study and presents the findings in a compelling way. James shows that, assuming 45,000 miles driven over 3 years, income over £50,000 for an employee receiving the car via a remuneration package (typical in the UK), a Tesla Model S Performance would save the employee £41,386 and the employer £14,278 over three years compared to a non-electric car with the same price tag. This comparison can be made for other models that are not so expensive, as Bank of America Merrill Lynch showed previously, but the Model S comparison does a great job of highlighting how much benefit there is to going electric in the UK today.

Which is great for EV owners especially model S and X but I'm not sure this is how we should be spending limited tax payer funds....

Sorry, but we can't give it all to FF's and nuclear. Some has to go to industries that don't hide their true costs under the rug (externalities).

ASavvyBuyer

New service starting up from Octopus for Electric Vehicles.

https://octopus.energy/electric-juice-network/

https://www.electrive.com/2020/05/19/octopus-launches-new-uk-charging-service/

ASavvyBuyer

Tesla quietly adds bidirectional charging capability

https://electrek.co/2020/05/19/tesla-bidirectional-charging-ready-game-changing-features/