Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Martyn1981

Nice milestone for Norway, they now have more BEV's on the road than petrol cars. Next milestone is BEV v's diesel, and then BEV v's ICE.

There Are Now More Fully Electric Cars On Norwegian Roads Than Gas Cars

Here is an overview of the OFV data showing the total of 2,872,652 vehicles in Norway listed by fuel type, with unit count, and current share on roads:

• Diesel: 999,715 – 34.80%

• Electric: 754,303 – 26.26%

• Gasoline: 753,905 – 26.24%

• Gasoline Plug-in Hybrid: 198,707 – 6.92%

• Gasoline Hybrid: 155,307 – 5.41%

• Diesel Plug-in Hybrid: 9,478 – 0.33%

• Diesel Hybrid: 896 – 0.03%

• LPG: 173 – 0.01%

• Hydrogen: 167 – 0.01%

orrery

Martyn1981 said:

Great progress for London's bus fleet...

London Gains Momentum in Electrifying Its 9,000-Strong Bus Fleet

... but not so great news at the bottom (at least on my view) where "Before you go" says that Stellantis are closing production of the Fiat e500 and described the European market for EVs as "in deep trouble".

michaels

orrery said:

Martyn1981 said:

Great progress for London's bus fleet...

London Gains Momentum in Electrifying Its 9,000-Strong Bus Fleet

... but not so great news at the bottom (at least on my view) where "Before you go" says that Stellantis are closing production of the Fiat e500 and described the European market for EVs as "in deep trouble".

28k for a limited range citi mini car, close competitor to the Dacia spring costing 15k....wonder why they are hard to sell?

Martyn1981

orrery said:

Martyn1981 said:

Great progress for London's bus fleet...

London Gains Momentum in Electrifying Its 9,000-Strong Bus Fleet

... but not so great news at the bottom (at least on my view) where "Before you go" says that Stellantis are closing production of the Fiat e500 and described the European market for EVs as "in deep trouble".

Yep, both Stellantis, and Italy are still desperately trying to slow the switch to EV's. The economic problems of the switch for legacy auto, predicted for over a decade, especially for those that don't act fast enough, are just now starting to be noticed by some parties.

philologus

I've  had my EV for a while now but have always managed to charge it at home. I have the Electroverse cards now and am expecting to use it next week. I've watched the video - but can anyone give me an idiot's guide  run through of how to use it. please?

Start from when I arrive at the charging point... 

thevilla

Just read the instructions on the charger.  They're all similar but different.  Most (I think) have separate rfid and contactless pads so use the rfid one when you need to pay.

michaels

Bumper month for EVs, possibly the UK regulatory targets and flagging EU sales?

UK new car registration data, UK car market - SMMT

JKenH

michaels said:

Bumper month for EVs, possibly the UK regulatory targets and flagging EU sales?

UK new car registration data, UK car market - SMMT

Well, here is one optimistic take on what’s happening

‘Electric car market is fizzing with life’

‘The UK’s electric car market is fizzing with life. Electric car registrations grew by almost a quarter in September, with one in five new cars an EV. It’s great to see more people than ever before switching to cleaner, cheaper driving.

Sensible government policy is driving an emerging great British success story, with electric car registrations here outperforming the rest of Europe. We are in a global race to get EVs on the roads and Britain is pulling into the fast lane.

The UK car market is going through a period of profound change, and parts of the retail industry are moving quicker than others. Fortunately the vast majority of people in the UK will feel the climate and air pollution benefits no matter how clean vehicles are sold.

Ben Nelmes, CEO of New AutoMotive

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/september-new-plate-day-sees-uk-new-car-market-grow-by-1-as-smmt-issues-ev-warning/308568

However the SMMT, after years of being bullish about progress with EV sales had this to say.

Unprecedented EV discounting shores up September new car market

Year-to-date private BEV demand remains down -6.3% – underlining the scale of the challenge involved in moving the mass market to meet the mandated targets that were conceived in very different economic, geopolitical and market conditions. Previous assumptions of a market delivering steady BEV growth, cheaper and plentiful raw materials, affordable energy and low interest rates have not come to fruition, with the upfront cost of BEV models remaining stubbornly high. Added to this is consumers’ lack of confidence in the UK’s charging provision – despite recent investment and growth – which still acts as a barrier to BEV take up.

In an effort to offset this underlying paucity of demand, SMMT calculates that manufacturers are on course to spend at least £2 billion on discounting EVs this year. Given the many billions already invested to develop and bring these models to market, the situation is untenable and threatens manufacturer and retailer viability. For this reason, SMMT and 12 major vehicle manufacturers representing more than 75% of the market, have today written to the Chancellor calling for measures to support consumers and help speed up the pace of the EV transition. 

https://www.smmt.co.uk/2024/10/unprecedented-ev-discounting-shores-up-september-new-car-market/

There simply isn’t the demand to move sufficient EVs without heavy discounting but is this sustainable?

If my understanding of the EV mandate is correct, OEMs will be fined £15,000 for every non EV they sell over their quota. For every 22 EVs they sell they can sell 78 ICE cars without penalty.

If however they can only manage to sell 22 EVs  then they would face a penalty of £15,000 for every extra ICE car sold.

If they manage to sell one more EV they can sell another 3.5 (78/22) ICE cars without penalty. Each extra EV they sell is therefore worth  around £53k to them in penalties avoided on those 3.5 cars. One would imagine that OEMs would therefore be falling over themselves to discount EVs but I recall a recent report (sorry, I can’t find a link) suggested the current level of discounts on (non fleet sales) EVs is on average 12% on an average list price of £49k so the average discount is only around £6k. Why don’t OEMs discount the price of EVs by more and sell more? 

If they were to discount by, say, £20k they would need to recover around £5.7k in “profit” on each ICE car sold to cover the EV discount. Given a significant part of the cost of manufacturing a car is already incurred, in terms of design, setting up production lines and fixed overheads the marginal (gross) profit per ICE car is probably considerably more than £5.7k so discounting EVs to avoid penalties on ICE sales would appear to make financial sense.

However it may not be so simple.

It is frequently reported that OEMs make a loss on every EV sold at list price. If say it costs an OEM £70k to manufacture an EV that has a list price of £49k, then, in addition to the discount, the OEMs would have to spread the manufacturing loss on each EV over 3.5 ICE cars, in this case a further £6k per ICE car sold so in total they need to recover £11.7k on each ICE car sold to cover their losses on each EV sold.

With further discounting there may come a point (at around 19-20%) where taking the hit of a £15k penalty from selling an extra ICE car is more cost effective than selling an EV to avoid it.

michaels

JKenH said:

michaels said:

Bumper month for EVs, possibly the UK regulatory targets and flagging EU sales?

UK new car registration data, UK car market - SMMT

Well, here is one optimistic take on what’s happening

‘Electric car market is fizzing with life’

‘The UK’s electric car market is fizzing with life. Electric car registrations grew by almost a quarter in September, with one in five new cars an EV. It’s great to see more people than ever before switching to cleaner, cheaper driving.

Sensible government policy is driving an emerging great British success story, with electric car registrations here outperforming the rest of Europe. We are in a global race to get EVs on the roads and Britain is pulling into the fast lane.

The UK car market is going through a period of profound change, and parts of the retail industry are moving quicker than others. Fortunately the vast majority of people in the UK will feel the climate and air pollution benefits no matter how clean vehicles are sold.

Ben Nelmes, CEO of New AutoMotive

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/september-new-plate-day-sees-uk-new-car-market-grow-by-1-as-smmt-issues-ev-warning/308568

However the SMMT, after years of being bullish about progress with EV sales had this to say.

Unprecedented EV discounting shores up September new car market

Year-to-date private BEV demand remains down -6.3% – underlining the scale of the challenge involved in moving the mass market to meet the mandated targets that were conceived in very different economic, geopolitical and market conditions. Previous assumptions of a market delivering steady BEV growth, cheaper and plentiful raw materials, affordable energy and low interest rates have not come to fruition, with the upfront cost of BEV models remaining stubbornly high. Added to this is consumers’ lack of confidence in the UK’s charging provision – despite recent investment and growth – which still acts as a barrier to BEV take up.

In an effort to offset this underlying paucity of demand, SMMT calculates that manufacturers are on course to spend at least £2 billion on discounting EVs this year. Given the many billions already invested to develop and bring these models to market, the situation is untenable and threatens manufacturer and retailer viability. For this reason, SMMT and 12 major vehicle manufacturers representing more than 75% of the market, have today written to the Chancellor calling for measures to support consumers and help speed up the pace of the EV transition. 

https://www.smmt.co.uk/2024/10/unprecedented-ev-discounting-shores-up-september-new-car-market/

There simply isn’t the demand to move sufficient EVs without heavy discounting but is this sustainable?

If my understanding of the EV mandate is correct, OEMs will be fined £15,000 for every non EV they sell over their quota. For every 22 EVs they sell they can sell 78 ICE cars without penalty.

If however they can only manage to sell 22 EVs  then they would face a penalty of £15,000 for every extra ICE car sold.

If they manage to sell one more EV they can sell another 3.5 (78/22) ICE cars without penalty. Each extra EV they sell is therefore worth  around £53k to them in penalties avoided on those 3.5 cars. One would imagine that OEMs would therefore be falling over themselves to discount EVs but I recall a recent report (sorry, I can’t find a link) suggested the current level of discounts on (non fleet sales) EVs is on average 12% on an average list price of £49k so the average discount is only around £6k. Why don’t OEMs discount the price of EVs by more and sell more? 

If they were to discount by, say, £20k they would need to recover around £5.7k in “profit” on each ICE car sold to cover the EV discount. Given a significant part of the cost of manufacturing a car is already incurred, in terms of design, setting up production lines and fixed overheads the marginal (gross) profit per ICE car is probably considerably more than £5.7k so discounting EVs to avoid penalties on ICE sales would appear to make financial sense.

However it may not be so simple.

It is frequently reported that OEMs make a loss on every EV sold at list price. If say it costs an OEM £70k to manufacture an EV that has a list price of £49k, then, in addition to the discount, the OEMs would have to spread the manufacturing loss on each EV over 3.5 ICE cars, in this case a further £6k per ICE car sold so in total they need to recover £11.7k on each ICE car sold to cover their losses on each EV sold.

With further discounting there may come a point (at around 19-20%) where taking the hit of a £15k penalty from selling an extra ICE car is more cost effective than selling an EV to avoid it.

It is a good example of !!!!!! policy making.  The discount on company car EVS make them a very poor investment new for private buyers who effectively pay much more whereas the residual value is set by the cost to the fleets who buy the majority not the list price.  Add on the fact that from next April EVs will pay more road tax than many older petrol and diesel cars and what is the incentive for a private buyer?!

I am not convinced re the manufacturing costs argument.  Look at what Chinese manufacturers charge i their home market or the fact that MG for example has said they can swallow the new EU tariffs.  There have also been a spate of brand new MG EVs available via carwow at below 20k, 10k plus below list and pre reg nissan leaf under 15k.

Seems like there is some brinksmanship going no between the manufacturers and the govt, Tesla must be hoping the govt does not blink and they can sell the tax credits on their 40k ish UK sales this year for £10k each, that along with the probably 10k worth of tax incentive 'discount' on every Tesla sold as a company car means they could be scooping £800m from the UK tax payer this year.  Sweet 

silverwhistle

There might be specific conditions relating to the car market, but when I see the word 'discounting' in any area of commerce I assume that a profit is still being made.

Stellantis group, for example, are known for their high list prices for all their models including ICE so when I see arguments over the relative popularity of EVs and the dynamic relationship with prices I take them all with a pinch of salt.

There is a constant repetition by some in the media that EVs are expensive, so reductions are welcome to expand the market. The fact that these lower prices are achieved by 'discounting' is irrelevant to the switched on consumer, although the legacy manufacturers may be suffering predictable pains.