Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

orrery

Martyn1981 said:

Just like all the silly nonsense that was said about RE 10+ years ago, and storage 5yrs ago to now(ish), it'll all blow over in time, as reality steadily trumps the disinformation. But it was a bit of a shock to see just how much the 'BEV news' is/was being manipulated in the UK. Hopefully it's just a vocal minority, who are simply scared of change, which is, tbf, entirely normal.

I think that the technique is to sow "doubt". It has been used by the tobacco industry and oil industry, and has been used by anti-evolution evangelical groups where it is called "Teach the Controversy" (where there is no controversy, but they'd like you to think there is).

The problem is that it may blow over in time, but as far as the climate goes we just don't have any spare time to accommodate this drag.

We know from university games that have been run to model climate change action, we will always be just too late as people hold back because " ... X, Y and Z just aren't pulling their weight, so why should we because we can't make enough difference on our own".

Martyn1981

orrery said:

Martyn1981 said:

Just like all the silly nonsense that was said about RE 10+ years ago, and storage 5yrs ago to now(ish), it'll all blow over in time, as reality steadily trumps the disinformation. But it was a bit of a shock to see just how much the 'BEV news' is/was being manipulated in the UK. Hopefully it's just a vocal minority, who are simply scared of change, which is, tbf, entirely normal.

I think that the technique is to sow "doubt". It has been used by the tobacco industry and oil industry, and has been used by anti-evolution evangelical groups where it is called "Teach the Controversy" (where there is no controversy, but they'd like you to think there is).

The problem is that it may blow over in time, but as far as the climate goes we just don't have any spare time to accommodate this drag.

We know from university games that have been run to model climate change action, we will always be just too late as people hold back because " ... X, Y and Z just aren't pulling their weight, so why should we because we can't make enough difference on our own".

Very, very true. I'm hoping, that like the tobacco industry, 'Big Oil' will soon lose a court case, and things will change. They are facing dozens, possibly hundreds in the US, based on their open (and hidden) campaigning against AGW science, despite their own findings in the 70's and 80's, confirming it. In fact, many of their predictions, such as CO2 ppm levels projected to 2020 (or so) have proven to be incredibly accurate.

I don't know to what level they may be/are interfering with BEV news, but I suspect much of the hype about H2 for road transport probably stems from them, under the sow doubt technique, that you point to. Also, the H2 solution (not that it's viable), allows a certain level of carrying on, as before, by supplying fuels to customers. Whereas BEV's, eliminate much of that, relying solely on the existing leccy infrastructure and/or an expansion of that.

With 'fuel' delivered free to the PV, or wind 'power station', this disrupts or eliminates whole industries, such as oil exploration, extraction, transportation, refining, transportation (again). That's not good news for those industries, though some (I'm thinking off shore oil industry manufacturing and workers) could pivot to off shore wind, as an example.

Totally appreciate that my 'blow over' comment may seem blase, but that's more to do with the smaller issues, as these do, and will keep changing, as ever more specialist and inventive locations for the goal posts are found. So smaller issues, such as RE costs too much and can't scale, became the grid can't cope, became there's no viable storage, became there's not enough of that storage today. Tomorrow, it'll be something else, now that storage options, and size are scaling.

The same applies to BEV's, starting with unviable, range, fires, run on coal generation, batteries need constant replacing, not enough lithium in the World (or the crazier version regarding rare earth minerals in the batts), not enough leccy (often, ironically, linked to 'we should have HFCV's instead'), and now largely to do with charging, as if that's an insurmountable problem, rather than simply an issue of scale, variety, and adaptation over time.

The good news is that BEV's are now unstoppable, since they offer superior driving, power, efficiency and reduced environmental harm. And I agree we need to move as fast as is possible. But no point sweating the small stuff, too much, as reality is trumping it, and time will erode it away completely. But, yes, too much time unfortunately.

Will keep the good news coming as a form of disinfectant for the dodgy negativity, just don't inject it into the body. 

JKenH

Martyn1981 said:

orrery said:

Martyn1981 said:

Just like all the silly nonsense that was said about RE 10+ years ago, and storage 5yrs ago to now(ish), it'll all blow over in time, as reality steadily trumps the disinformation. But it was a bit of a shock to see just how much the 'BEV news' is/was being manipulated in the UK. Hopefully it's just a vocal minority, who are simply scared of change, which is, tbf, entirely normal.

I think that the technique is to sow "doubt". It has been used by the tobacco industry and oil industry, and has been used by anti-evolution evangelical groups where it is called "Teach the Controversy" (where there is no controversy, but they'd like you to think there is).

The problem is that it may blow over in time, but as far as the climate goes we just don't have any spare time to accommodate this drag.

We know from university games that have been run to model climate change action, we will always be just too late as people hold back because " ... X, Y and Z just aren't pulling their weight, so why should we because we can't make enough difference on our own".

Very, very true. I'm hoping, that like the tobacco industry, 'Big Oil' will soon lose a court case, and things will change. They are facing dozens, possibly hundreds in the US, based on their open (and hidden) campaigning against AGW science, despite their own findings in the 70's and 80's, confirming it. In fact, many of their predictions, such as CO2 ppm levels projected to 2020 (or so) have proven to be incredibly accurate.

I don't know to what level they may be/are interfering with BEV news, but I suspect much of the hype about H2 for road transport probably stems from them, under the sow doubt technique, that you point to. Also, the H2 solution (not that it's viable), allows a certain level of carrying on, as before, by supplying fuels to customers. Whereas BEV's, eliminate much of that, relying solely on the existing leccy infrastructure and/or an expansion of that.

With 'fuel' delivered free to the PV, or wind 'power station', this disrupts or eliminates whole industries, such as oil exploration, extraction, transportation, refining, transportation (again). That's not good news for those industries, though some (I'm thinking off shore oil industry manufacturing and workers) could pivot to off shore wind, as an example.

Totally appreciate that my 'blow over' comment may seem blase, but that's more to do with the smaller issues, as these do, and will keep changing, as ever more specialist and inventive locations for the goal posts are found. So smaller issues, such as RE costs too much and can't scale, became the grid can't cope, became there's no viable storage, became there's not enough of that storage today. Tomorrow, it'll be something else, now that storage options, and size are scaling.

The same applies to BEV's, starting with unviable, range, fires, run on coal generation, batteries need constant replacing, not enough lithium in the World (or the crazier version regarding rare earth minerals in the batts), not enough leccy (often, ironically, linked to 'we should have HFCV's instead'), and now largely to do with charging, as if that's an insurmountable problem, rather than simply an issue of scale, variety, and adaptation over time.

The good news is that BEV's are now unstoppable, since they offer superior driving, power, efficiency and reduced environmental harm. And I agree we need to move as fast as is possible. But no point sweating the small stuff, too much, as reality is trumping it, and time will erode it away completely. But, yes, too much time unfortunately.

Will keep the good news coming as a form of disinfectant for the dodgy negativity, just don't inject it into the body. 

With government mandates in place in many countries removing the alternatives,  EVs certainly should be unstoppable. It is their game to lose. The real danger is that those pushing EVs become overconfident and start believing their own rhetoric. 

What has happened today in Uxbridge has caught the political classes by surprise. ULEZ sank the Labour candidate in what should have been a shoo in seat. Politicians are now scrambling to distance themselves from over zealous green regulation for fear of losing votes. Labour have said “The Uxbridge result shows that when you don’t listen to the voters, you don’t win elections.” The Tory Craig McKinley said “We need to get the 2030 ban on new petrol and diesel cars overturned at least until 2035, which is where most of the developed world is going. It is pure madness to saddle ourselves with this deadline.”

Lord Frost said “The lesson is surely that green policies are very unpopular when there’s a direct cost to people - as indeed all the polling says. This time that hit Labour. But soon it could be us unless we rethink heat pumps and the 2030 electric car deadline.” 

Westminster politicians were too removed from the general population to see this ULEZ revolt coming just as they were with Brexit. They won’t want to make the same mistake again. 

The battle for the moral high ground on Climate Change is now likely to play second fiddle to the battle for votes. If the main parties don’t take notice then the door is left open (just as with Brexit) for a third party to step in and take the populist vote and control the agenda.

Exiled_Tyke

The problem with ULEZ is that it's all stick and no carrot. It punishes those who can least afford to change and those (in theory) should include Labour voters.   The issue is not that the polices are green but that they are poor  ways to achieve what's needed.

Martyn1981

Exiled_Tyke said:

JKenH said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

Who's TRYING To KILL The ELECTRIC CAR? And What Can You Do About It?

Thanks for posting this Martyn. This is Brilliant. And prompted a couple of thoughts: 

1. My diesel Audi needed a service shortly before I changed it. The garage came to pick it up and saw my charger on the wall (in expectation of the new car) and came out with now familiar vitriol to that referenced in this video. I really couldn't understand it but I do now. (He was also damning about the fact the car used AdBlue (which I think is a real benefit to diesel vehicles)  

2. The Rowan Atkinson story they refer to  (I do wonder who wrote it and who paid him to put it in his name) shows the relatively gentle way that misinformation (sorry 'lies') can be spread.  It reminded me (without getting into the political debate) of how similar nonsense arguments were delivered to appear quite plausibly in other situations, most noticeably Brexit and also PR).   For completeness I thought it useful to post a link to the rebuttal of the Rowan Atkinson story which is interesting to both set the record straight but also to illustrate the subtle ways in which the truth is manipulated to mislead.   

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/08/fact-check-why-rowan-atkinson-is-wrong-about-electric-vehicles#:~:text=While many details of the,fuelling petrol and diesel cars

Let us all beware! 

I think some people are getting a bit carried away with the notion that Big Oil or other vested interests are somehow responsible for the negative stories appearing in UK newspapers. These statements are made without providing any evidence to support them. I can’t believe anyone would seriously think that Rowan Atkinson was paid by some anti EV organisation to publish his article. He is a well known petrolhead and probably just wasn’t very happy with his EV experience. 

It's not like the oil industry owns 20% of the world's wealth and might like to keep it that way?

I am sure they would but that doesn’t mean they are sponsoring the negative articles about EVs that are appearing in UK newspapers. I don’t  know the exact statistics but only a small minority of the population own EVs and the newspaper industry may be more interested in pleasing the majority who don’t own EVs. Possibly they believe more people will enjoy reading bad news about EVs than good news. I can imagine the queues reported at Tesla chargers one Christmas just confirmed for many Daily Mail readers what they already “knew”. I doubt that the average Daily Mail or Telegraph reader would consider Fully Charged particularly even handed in their reporting either.

It's not like Big Oil have ever tried anything similar before, you know like pulling massive long-term PR campaigns of lies to protect their interests.    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jan/12/exxon-climate-change-global-warming-research

Hiya ET, thought you might find the recent Ad from ExxonMobil funny. And by funny, I mean heartbreaking and misleading, from an environmental standpoint. Shame that the 10yr old Leaf ad still beats them. 

Unplugged, or unhinged: Big Oil’s ad campaign against electric vehicles

Big Oil is upping its fight against the accelerating uptake of electric vehicles, a transition that threatens to upturn its trillion dollar industry and leave it with huge amounts of stranded assets.

A new advertising campaign launched by Mobil Oil, a subsidiary of ExxonMobil, has decided that “freedom” means not being attached to a cable. “Disconnecting feels a lot like breaking free,” the ad says.

JKenH

Martyn1981 said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

JKenH said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

Who's TRYING To KILL The ELECTRIC CAR? And What Can You Do About It?

Thanks for posting this Martyn. This is Brilliant. And prompted a couple of thoughts: 

1. My diesel Audi needed a service shortly before I changed it. The garage came to pick it up and saw my charger on the wall (in expectation of the new car) and came out with now familiar vitriol to that referenced in this video. I really couldn't understand it but I do now. (He was also damning about the fact the car used AdBlue (which I think is a real benefit to diesel vehicles)  

2. The Rowan Atkinson story they refer to  (I do wonder who wrote it and who paid him to put it in his name) shows the relatively gentle way that misinformation (sorry 'lies') can be spread.  It reminded me (without getting into the political debate) of how similar nonsense arguments were delivered to appear quite plausibly in other situations, most noticeably Brexit and also PR).   For completeness I thought it useful to post a link to the rebuttal of the Rowan Atkinson story which is interesting to both set the record straight but also to illustrate the subtle ways in which the truth is manipulated to mislead.   

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/08/fact-check-why-rowan-atkinson-is-wrong-about-electric-vehicles#:~:text=While many details of the,fuelling petrol and diesel cars

Let us all beware! 

I think some people are getting a bit carried away with the notion that Big Oil or other vested interests are somehow responsible for the negative stories appearing in UK newspapers. These statements are made without providing any evidence to support them. I can’t believe anyone would seriously think that Rowan Atkinson was paid by some anti EV organisation to publish his article. He is a well known petrolhead and probably just wasn’t very happy with his EV experience. 

It's not like the oil industry owns 20% of the world's wealth and might like to keep it that way?

I am sure they would but that doesn’t mean they are sponsoring the negative articles about EVs that are appearing in UK newspapers. I don’t  know the exact statistics but only a small minority of the population own EVs and the newspaper industry may be more interested in pleasing the majority who don’t own EVs. Possibly they believe more people will enjoy reading bad news about EVs than good news. I can imagine the queues reported at Tesla chargers one Christmas just confirmed for many Daily Mail readers what they already “knew”. I doubt that the average Daily Mail or Telegraph reader would consider Fully Charged particularly even handed in their reporting either.

It's not like Big Oil have ever tried anything similar before, you know like pulling massive long-term PR campaigns of lies to protect their interests.    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jan/12/exxon-climate-change-global-warming-research

Hiya ET, thought you might find the recent Ad from ExxonMobil funny. And by funny, I mean heartbreaking and misleading, from an environmental standpoint. Shame that the 10yr old Leaf ad still beats them. 

Unplugged, or unhinged: Big Oil’s ad campaign against electric vehicles

Big Oil is upping its fight against the accelerating uptake of electric vehicles, a transition that threatens to upturn its trillion dollar industry and leave it with huge amounts of stranded assets.

A new advertising campaign launched by Mobil Oil, a subsidiary of ExxonMobil, has decided that “freedom” means not being attached to a cable. “Disconnecting feels a lot like breaking free,” the ad says.

I must have missed the reference to EVs. Maybe it was too subtle for me. Wasn’t it an ad for Mobil Synthetic oil - the target market for which is presumably people who do their own oil changes. They are unlikely to be offended by the ad if is anti EV; in fact it might delight the coal rollers. 

Still the EV community obviously sees it as some threat and is circulating the advert to a far wider community than Mobil might have anticipated it would reach. That’s probably a win for Mobil. I wouldn’t have seen it had it not been for this thread. 

Exiled_Tyke

Thanks Mart. That's the way they do it, subtly: 'in a manner so delicate or precise as to be difficult to analyse or describe: his language expresses rich and subtle meanings.'. That way whenever someone objects it's easy to pull them apart and claim they are being picky or over sensitive.     

Meanwhile: 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-66229065

Or if you prefer

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/21/rampant-heatwaves-threaten-food-security-of-entire-planet-scientists-warn


It really is time to clamp down on this nonsense in every guise but whilst governmentsl are in the pockets of Big Oil then perhaps we really are all doomed?

JKenH

Exiled_Tyke said:

Thanks Mart. That's the way they do it, subtly: 'in a manner so delicate or precise as to be difficult to analyse or describe: his language expresses rich and subtle meanings.'. That way whenever someone objects it's easy to pull them apart and claim they are being picky or over sensitive.     

Meanwhile: 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-66229065

Or if you prefer

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/21/rampant-heatwaves-threaten-food-security-of-entire-planet-scientists-warn


It really is time to clamp down on this nonsense in every guise but whilst Big Oil is in the pockets of governments then perhaps we really are all doomed?

Simple, just move to China, life must be infinitely better there without all these dissenting voices. 

thevilla

At some point the cost of doing nothing will far outstrip the savings in watering down green policies.  The general public need education.  People have to realise they are dooming themselves and future generations for the sake a feeling less impoverished today. 

henrik777

JKenH said:

thevilla said:

JKenH said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

Who's TRYING To KILL The ELECTRIC CAR? And What Can You Do About It?

Thanks for posting this Martyn. This is Brilliant. And prompted a couple of thoughts: 

1. My diesel Audi needed a service shortly before I changed it. The garage came to pick it up and saw my charger on the wall (in expectation of the new car) and came out with now familiar vitriol to that referenced in this video. I really couldn't understand it but I do now. (He was also damning about the fact the car used AdBlue (which I think is a real benefit to diesel vehicles)  

2. The Rowan Atkinson story they refer to  (I do wonder who wrote it and who paid him to put it in his name) shows the relatively gentle way that misinformation (sorry 'lies') can be spread.  It reminded me (without getting into the political debate) of how similar nonsense arguments were delivered to appear quite plausibly in other situations, most noticeably Brexit and also PR).   For completeness I thought it useful to post a link to the rebuttal of the Rowan Atkinson story which is interesting to both set the record straight but also to illustrate the subtle ways in which the truth is manipulated to mislead.   

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/08/fact-check-why-rowan-atkinson-is-wrong-about-electric-vehicles#:~:text=While many details of the,fuelling petrol and diesel cars

Let us all beware! 

I think some people are getting a bit carried away with the notion that Big Oil or other vested interests are somehow responsible for the negative stories appearing in UK newspapers. These statements are made without providing any evidence to support them. I can’t believe anyone would seriously think that Rowan Atkinson was paid by some anti EV organisation to publish his article. He is a well known petrolhead and probably just wasn’t very happy with his EV experience. 

JKenH said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

Who's TRYING To KILL The ELECTRIC CAR? And What Can You Do About It?

Thanks for posting this Martyn. This is Brilliant. And prompted a couple of thoughts: 

1. My diesel Audi needed a service shortly before I changed it. The garage came to pick it up and saw my charger on the wall (in expectation of the new car) and came out with now familiar vitriol to that referenced in this video. I really couldn't understand it but I do now. (He was also damning about the fact the car used AdBlue (which I think is a real benefit to diesel vehicles)  

2. The Rowan Atkinson story they refer to  (I do wonder who wrote it and who paid him to put it in his name) shows the relatively gentle way that misinformation (sorry 'lies') can be spread.  It reminded me (without getting into the political debate) of how similar nonsense arguments were delivered to appear quite plausibly in other situations, most noticeably Brexit and also PR).   For completeness I thought it useful to post a link to the rebuttal of the Rowan Atkinson story which is interesting to both set the record straight but also to illustrate the subtle ways in which the truth is manipulated to mislead.   

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/08/fact-check-why-rowan-atkinson-is-wrong-about-electric-vehicles#:~:text=While many details of the,fuelling petrol and diesel cars

Let us all beware! 

I think some people are getting a bit carried away with the notion that Big Oil or other vested interests are somehow responsible for the negative stories appearing in UK newspapers. These statements are made without providing any evidence to support them. I can’t believe anyone would seriously think that Rowan Atkinson was paid by some anti EV organisation to publish his article. He is a well known petrolhead and probably just wasn’t very happy with his EV experience. 

It's not like the oil industry owns 20% of the world's wealth and might like to keep it that way?

I am sure they would but that doesn’t mean they are sponsoring the negative articles about EVs that are appearing in UK newspapers. I don’t  know the exact statistics but only a small minority of the population own EVs and the newspaper industry may be more interested in pleasing the majority who don’t own EVs. Possibly they believe more people will enjoy reading bad news about EVs than good news. I can imagine the queues reported at Tesla chargers one Christmas just confirmed for many Daily Mail readers what they already “knew”. I doubt that the average Daily Mail or Telegraph reader would consider Fully Charged particularly even handed in their reporting either.

Quite why Labour did not make a bigger deal of this baffles me.