Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Grumpy_chap

shinytop said:

Probably something around 250 miles, maybe a little less. 
  Size?  I'm not too concerned; something Focus-sized would be fine.  

Sounds like the MG5 EV would fit the bill.

CKhalvashi

Grumpy_chap said:

shinytop said:

Probably something around 250 miles, maybe a little less. 
  Size?  I'm not too concerned; something Focus-sized would be fine.  

Sounds like the MG5 EV would fit the bill.

Sounds like this to me too, from what I've heard they're quite robust and should meet the requirements you're looking for.

JKenH

Hydrogen fuel station serves Enterprise cars as part of £2.5m trial

It will be a while before they make money out of this fuel station but it’s another option.

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/fleet-industry-news/2022/02/08/hydrogen-fuel-station-serves-enterprise-cars-as-part-of-25m-trial

Edit:

Here is a list of the hydrogen fuel stations open in the UK in April 2021. They are more widely spread than I expected.

The list of hydrogen refuelling stations in the UK @ April 2021

1. HyFive 2, Rainham, Essex (RM13 8EU)
2. Sainsbury's, Hendon, London (NW9 6JX)
3. Hatton Cross, London (TW6 2GE)
4. HyFive 1, Teddington, Surrey (TW11 0LY)
5. HyFive 3, M25 Cobham Services, Surrey (KT11 3JS)
6. M40 Beaconsfield Services, Buckinghamshire (HP9 2SE)
7. Honda Manufacturing, Swindon, Wiltshire (SN3 4QS)
8. University of South Wales, Glyntaff, Pontypridd, Wales (CF37 4BD)
9. University of South Wales, Bagran, Port Talbot, Wales (SA12 7AX)
10. Coventry University, West Midlands (CV1 2HG)
11. University of Birmingham, West Midlands (B15 2FG)
12. ITM Power, Rotherham, South Yorkshire (S60 5WG
13. Aberdeen Council, BOC Hydrogen Refuelling, Powis Terrace, Aberdeen (AB25 3PY)
14. Aberdeen Hydrogen Centre, Langdykes Road, City of Aberdeen (AB12 3FT)

http://www.hydrogenbatteries.org/Where_Can_I_You_Buy_Filling_Up_With_Hydrogen_In_The_UK_Nearest_Service_Station.htm

By comparison Germany has 92 hydrogen refuelling stations. 

CKhalvashi

Interestingly, there's a taxi company offering hydrogen car services in Paris using Toyotas.

Not sure on the French hydrogen costs but it obviously works for them.

What (if any and ignoring charging time) are the benefits of hydrogen over electricity, especially in terms of cost and efficiency?

Asking as this seems to be a very limited market (I don't recall ever seeing a hydrogen-powered car in the UK where EVs are quite popular)

Grumpy_chap

CKhalvashi said:

(I don't recall ever seeing a hydrogen-powered car in the UK)

I've seen two.

There is one in use locally as a taxi.

There is a second one stuck on the forecourt of the local Toyota dealer - seems to have been there in stock since time immemorial.

Both are Toyota Mirai models.

ABrass

CKhalvashi said:

Interestingly, there's a taxi company offering hydrogen car services in Paris using Toyotas.

Not sure on the French hydrogen costs but it obviously works for them.

What (if any and ignoring charging time) are the benefits of hydrogen over electricity, especially in terms of cost and efficiency?

Asking as this seems to be a very limited market (I don't recall ever seeing a hydrogen-powered car in the UK where EVs are quite popular)

Hydrogen vehicles are more expensive to build than EVs at present and the fuel is comparable or worse than petrol in cost per mile. That's using very polluting Hydrogen, Green hydrogen is something like five times the price. In terms of energy efficiency they're never going to be as efficient as BEVs.

There may be advantages in fueling time, which could be similar to petrol, and if you need lots of range then someone could build a HEV with a large tank. Heavy goods vehicles might make sense but that's probably about it.

An interesting concept that hasn't survived contact with reality.

Martyn1981

ABrass said:

Hydrogen vehicles are more expensive to build than EVs at present and the fuel is comparable or worse than petrol in cost per mile. That's using very polluting Hydrogen, Green hydrogen is something like five times the price. In terms of energy efficiency they're never going to be as efficient as BEVs.

There may be advantages in fueling time, which could be similar to petrol, and if you need lots of range then someone could build a HEV with a large tank. Heavy goods vehicles might make sense but that's probably about it.

An interesting concept that hasn't survived contact with reality.

It's not looking good for HGV's either now. I watched the Nikola One launch back in 2016 and thought it had great potential as a cleaner vehicle, though not cheaper.

The stats they gave were 1,200 mile range, 1,000-2,000lbs lighter than a full size semi, and a running cost of 97c/mile v's 99c/mile for a diesel.

They heavily stressed the importance of the lower weight, allowing for more goods to be transported, and that that's where the profit would be made. The figures were based on their actual testing, and Trevor Milton the CEO at the time stressed that the truck on stage was a fully working vehicle, not a 'pusher' (pushed on stage for the launch).

Sadly, Trevor was lying about everything, has been pushed out, Nikola have paid fines, and Trevor is facing criminal prosecution.

So it turns out the truck was a pusher, didn't have H2 tech on board (in case it exploded and injured the audience ... yeah right!), and when questions about it working or not finally got too hard to deny, they released the now infamous 'Nikola One in motion' video, which turned out to be filmed on a long sloping road, and the truck was rolling downhill.

So, why does this matter, because their new stats for the truck have changed massively. It's no longer got a 1,200 mile range, but 600 miles, which presumably doubles the cost of the hydrogen fuel. They have been challenged for using a 99c/mile for diesel which apparently was out of date, failing to reflect lower costs from more efficient modern diesels and lower maintenance costs, and crucially the truck is now estimated to weigh 1,000 to 2,000lbs more than a diesel.

The good news though, is that now Trevor has gone, Nikola has started to produce their BEV version, the Nikola Tre. Technically they seem to be assembling them, since the batts come from LG Chem (I think), the chassis from Iveco, and most of the clever stuff from Bosch. They are also getting support from Germany and the German press, so they are looking more likely to survive now.


So, my thoughts. Nikola's (Trevor's) original claims seemed to suggest that the vehicle might just work if legislation was used to encourage H2 v's diesel. But the real stats now seem to show it has little chance of competing economically, and there are just too many BEV trucks coming out now and proving the technology and costs to leave room for H2, other than perhaps some unusual edge-cases.

Crucially, if BEV trucks can be charged in the mandated time that truck drivers have to stop on long distances/long drives, then that last hurdle is removed. The recent Tesla Q4 earnings report has a photo of four of their trucks charging at their megachargers at Giga Nevada, which are rated at 1.5MW, so if the claimed 2kWh/mile at max weight is correct, and a large batt has the 500 claimed miles, then it might be ~1MWh. During the launch it was claimed that 400 miles could be added in 30mins, which would (I believe?) require ~1.6MW, so looking realistic.


As you say the H2 is pretty dirty, and with a leccy generation to wheel efficiency of about 25% (due to all the processes and losses) v's about 75% for BEV's, green H2 will always cost multiples of green leccy for a BEV.

Martyn1981

On the subject of technically technology who's time may have passed, I watched a vid from Fully Charged yesterday that looked at hybrids. It's done in a pleasant conversation style, explaining the various types of electrified vehicles.

Spoiler alert, they stress how important HEV's and then PHEV's were in the process, give lots of valid praise to Toyota for driving this tech forward, but then go on to suggest that the time for hybrids has now largely passed.

An Idiot’s Guide to Hybrids: Why you’re better off going Electric!

CKhalvashi

ABrass said:

CKhalvashi said:

Interestingly, there's a taxi company offering hydrogen car services in Paris using Toyotas.

Not sure on the French hydrogen costs but it obviously works for them.

What (if any and ignoring charging time) are the benefits of hydrogen over electricity, especially in terms of cost and efficiency?

Asking as this seems to be a very limited market (I don't recall ever seeing a hydrogen-powered car in the UK where EVs are quite popular)

Hydrogen vehicles are more expensive to build than EVs at present and the fuel is comparable or worse than petrol in cost per mile. That's using very polluting Hydrogen, Green hydrogen is something like five times the price. In terms of energy efficiency they're never going to be as efficient as BEVs.

There may be advantages in fueling time, which could be similar to petrol, and if you need lots of range then someone could build a HEV with a large tank. Heavy goods vehicles might make sense but that's probably about it.

An interesting concept that hasn't survived contact with reality.

Although I think even for HGVs there is a debate on whether this would be necessary, as realistically if 350km of range at 90km/h can be squeezed from a battery pack that can be rapid charged, there would be very little need for hydrogen to be used in this case either if they can be topped to almost full in an hour as we were discussing the other night.

Thanks for the explanation of this.

Coastalwatch

If anyone wasn't convinced of the future then another little indicator announced by Nissan.

Nissan is getting ready to drop the combustion engine

Nissan is suspending the development of new combustion engines in almost all of its main markets. According to a Japanese media report, the carmaker wants to free up resources for electric mobility.

This is reported by Nikkei Asia. Only in the USA will Nissan continue the development of internal combustion engines to a limited extent for pickup trucks and SUVs – because of the high demand, according to the Nikkei article. For the Chinese and Japanese markets, Nissan will also continue to develop hybrid drives – on the combustion engine side, the existing units will be modified and improved. However, new developments are not planned.

https://www.electrive.com/2022/02/09/nissan-is-getting-ready-to-drop-the-combustion-engine/