Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

JKenH

Hexane said:

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

You posted it on this forum, I'm not sure what a link to an article from clean teknika has to do with anything as clean technika doesn't post on this forum...

Mart posted quotes from and a link to an article on CleanTechnica.

What, just one article from CleanTechnica? 

Well have this one on me. CT’s take on Elon Musk having to settle a law suit from unhappy customers. 

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/07/31/elon-musk-admitting-he-was-wrong-is-why-hes-the-best-ceo-for-tesla%EF%BB%BF/

Compare that with what they had to say about Toyota. 

JKenH

Martyn1981 said:

JKenH said:

Martyn1981 said:

JKenH said:

Perhaps the real issue for the CleanTechnica crowd is that If FCVs work it will be the OEMs and the oil companies making money from it.  

Weird how you keep targeting CleanTechnica, but I suppose they would be classed as green & ethical.

Firstly, I thought the story was broken and published by The New York Times.

Secondly, why would the oil companies be making money from it, if it is using green hydrogen, since that will be derived from green leccy generation, which anyone can make.


Anyways, if you think the future is HFCV's, then fine, seems silly to waste time arguing about it now, time will tell (or perhaps already has).

Perhaps I “targeted” CleanTechnica because the article you posted was from CleanTechnica. Maybe the story was broken by the NYT but that wasn’t the article you quoted. Some quite strong views were expressed by the CT contributor and it was those (and CT’s declared policy to be negative about HFC road vehicles) I was responding to. 

Oil companies will be making money from hydrogen because they are the companies pushing it. It may be blue or grey at the moment but if they are the ones who put the infrastructure in place they will be the ones to benefit as hydrogen (blue grey or green) becomes more mainstream and will be the ones in a position to benefit from it. 

If, as you say, it is silly to continue arguing about it why post an article about it then continue arguing about it?

I don’t see why it has to be an “either or” with EVs and FCVs. Why do we have to have such a binary discussion? There is room for both just as there was room for petrol and diesel. There were diesel haters and diesel lovers and there are EV lovers and EV haters. Look at CDs and vinyl, we just can’t see the future. Choice is good.

It is only the ardent EV supporters and the oil company haters who feel the need to bash hydrogen and claim every attempt to promote the technology is to derail the transition to batteries. Maybe someone actually sees a commercial opportunity. 

Why not be excited that there is a new technology that might work out or might not. (It isn’t like nuclear fusion. FCVs work as a technology but face an uphill struggle to be commercially viable. Just consider how many people were dismissing  EVs 20 years ago (lack of range, too expensive, no charging infrastructure etc.) and look how that turned out.

Just keep an open mind. There is no need to make a call at this stage, (unless you are invested in one of the technologies); let’s see how it plays out. You may well be proved right (or you may be wrong) but it is too early to write the obituary just yet. 

That's a strange argument. You are trying to stick up for Toyota and their worldwide campaigning to slow down higher fuel efficiency standards and the move towards EV's, because you support choice for HFCV's even though you seem to stop short of suggesting they are actually a competitive technology. 

Nobody on here, as far as I'm aware is against fuel cells, nor HFCV's, but it's now abundantly clear that BEV's are the better choice for road vehicles, and the market is going in that direction.

Toyota having invested so heavily in HEV's and PHEV's and HFCV's (excellent examples of such vehicles), has now realised that that vast investment will almost all be wasted now as we move away from anything with an ICE, and HFCV's are not competitive - so they are openly campaigning to do harm, by slowing the transition away from FF's - and that has been picked up by the NYT, Cleantechica, etc..

It has nothing to do with being open minded, we're all open minded. It has nothing to do with giving PHEV's and HFCV's a fair shot, they've had that. It has nothing to do with stopping Toyota from pursuing PHEV's and HFCV's, if that's what they want, though it's odd that they haven't been rolling out the necessary infrastructure for the last 10yrs, whilst promoting HFCV's.

All it has to do with is being green and ethical, and calling out that which would slow down the transition to cleaner, greener and more sustainable transport.

Methinks thou dost protest too much

JKenH

ABrass said:

I suggest we drop the Hydrogen discussion again until there's actually any news for it?


Toyota campaigning against fuel economy standards was news, and disappointing news.

Is that what they actually did? I was struggling to find much about it on the net. The NYT is paywalled but anyway  is now perceived as a “liberal” news source. 

I did find this article though. It seems they weren’t alone.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-autos-emissions-idUSKBN2A21E4

Martyn1981

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said: Anyway, I am not too worried about losing credibility on this board. Credibility on here is only achieved by saying what people want to hear.  I would be more worried if I lost the conviction to express a view that is at odds with the received “wisdom” of this forum.

I think you are a bit confused between being credible and being liked.

It's an Internet forum, who cares if people don't like what you post, that could be because it's uncomfortable truths, that would still make you credible. 

Ok, so the corollary to that is - because a post gets lots of likes it doesn’t make the author credible, just likeable? 😉 

Correct, likes does not equal credibility. 

When you quote things from an article, you are posting something that someone else has said, when you post something you write, that's something you are saying.

After years of being on these forums, I'm stunned you didn't realise that.

You think Martyn1981 is the writer for clean tekna??
If not, then your point has no merit and so loses you some credibility. 

Fair comment when you post an article/link from an independent journalistic source, e.g. BBC news, Guardian, Telegraph, Times etc. However CleanTechnica is not independent. It has an agenda and a bias towards new clean technology, against the old industrial order and promoting redistribution of wealth. 

Our mission at CleanTechnica is to catalyze the clean tech revolution through industry coverage with journalistic integrity.

Our vision is a radical mindset shift, and seeing the corrupt, old, clunky, and dirty economy fade away as the new one rises. We envision, within our lifetimes, a global economy based on renewable and clean energy, permaculture & reforestation, cellular agriculture, smallholder organic farms with smart technology, and electrified transit. We envision good employment opportunities for all, rather than wealth accumulation at the top 1%. And we envision distributed resources inherently moving us toward an egalitarian society. 

If you are going to regularly post politicised articles from a source like that then you must accept that you will be perceived to be aligning yourself with the content. Martin may not have penned the opening sentence quoted “Toyota seems to be doing everything possible to become known as one of the most despicable corporations on the face of the Earth” but he chose to post it. 

Anyway I wasn’t having a go at Mart, I was challenging the content of the article he shared.

What?????? CleanTechnica has a green and ethical agenda ..... how very dare they!

If only there was a board for G&E minded people.

Martyn1981

Just a personal belief, but I think it's really important, perhaps more important to electrify heavy transport, buses, vans, and those vehicles that do a lot of miles, to get the biggest wins for air quality asap. So here is some news on the Tesla semi and the production delay mentioned at the recent earnings call. There's also a mention of a factory in the UK for Rivian, who are building some excellent pick ups and SUV's, though they are at the higher price end of the market.

Hyundai/LG Battery Factory In Indonesia, Tesla Semi Delay, Rivian Factory In UK

One of the news items from Tesla’s Q2 shareholder letter and call that we mostly skipped over is that production of the much anticipated Tesla Semi has been pushed back until 2022 since there is not yet an adequate supply of the company’s latest 4680 battery cells. The global shortage of computer chips is also partially to blame for the delay.

On last week’s earnings call, company executives told the press that production of the Semi is slated to begin after the company’s two new factories in Germany and Texas start building cars, something both are expected to do before the end of this year. For more on the Tesla Semi, check out the video below.

Oh, and this just in. According to Sky News, Rivian is in talks with the UK government about building a factory in the UK. The talks center on what incentives the government is willing to offer to lure Rivian to its shores. Presumably, the new factory, if there is one, will be located near the city of Bristol.

The Rivian R1T is a bit smaller than the typically massive American pickup truck, which may make it more attractive to drivers in the UK and Europe where roads are somewhat narrower and cities are heavily congested. The UK auto industry is on shaky ground after Brexit, which means the government has a strong incentive to lure foreign investment to the country. Rivian is already planning to build a second assembly line and battery factory in the US.

Edit - Speaking of BEV trucks there's also this article, it's only about 2 vehicles, but bought by Green Mountain Power, whose name I recognised, as they are working hard to decarbonize, and I think I've mentioned them way in the past on the energy thread, so a nice 'virtuous circle' so to speak.


https://electrek.co/2021/07/30/green-mountain-power-aims-to-make-its-trucks-as-green-as-its-grid-with-lion-electric/

Solarchaser

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said: Anyway, I am not too worried about losing credibility on this board. Credibility on here is only achieved by saying what people want to hear.  I would be more worried if I lost the conviction to express a view that is at odds with the received “wisdom” of this forum.

However when you post hyperbole, you lose credibility not likes.

So whoever posted this little gem of hyperbole must be seriously lacking credibility.

Toyota seems to be doing everything possible to become known as one of the most despicable corporations on the face of the Earth.

Well that depends, has he or she got a history of posting hyperbole?
Or standing behind articles laden with inaccuracies?

I mean it was back in March? April? When you stood behind the article telling us all that chargers in Glasgow were not free, even though I told you through my own experience and with proof from the network running the chargers, it wasn't true.

I have to say, that damaged your credibility. 

It's like a plusses and minuses thing.
You post 5 good well thought out points, you get plus 5 credibility,  you then post silly hyperbole and you lose a point, and go down to 4.

When you target a user very obviously, you lose many more points.

You don't like Martyn, ok we all get it.

Cool, now can we move on without the hyperbole?

I think it was April but haven’t looked back. Did I actually say that all chargers were free?  I think the article said that Glasgow council had taken the decision to move from free to chargeable chargers. By all means trawl back through the posts and prove me wrong but at the end of the day we are arguing about semantics. Glasgow is presumably now rolling out paid chargers if it hasn’t done so already.

I don’t dislike Mart anymore than I dislike you. I don’t know either of you. I don’t like some of his posts but I like others. 

Nope. Glasgow chargers still free bar around half a dozen of the hundred or so.

The decision to start charging (which is what I was referring to) was taken in April to start from May 1st. I imagine there are hardware changes to be implemented. It’s coming. 

https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/electric-car-charging-fees-introduced-20336627

Strangely enough I've read the Glasgow live article too, but because I have an open mind (sometimes) I read the article as it was and didn't apply my biases, and if you do that, you will see its an opinion piece, like most of the daily express articles.
The writers opinion was they were going to be charging for charging come May 1st, I have to tell you its 3 months later, the network operator has changed and they are still free (for now), so where opinion meets facts, I go with facts.

If you think the express and mail have high reporting standards, then you are seriously mistaken.
The mail used to be the more rabid, but the express has sunk to the bottom of that particular mountain.
Try search terms for sturgeon and crushed... that will give you an idea of how rabid that rag is.

BBC, yeah they have done their very best to hide the most crushing failures of the current government, and are most definitely right wing.
You are too, most people can see that from your postings, and thats OK, I'm left wing, and thats OK too, most will see that from my postings, you need both sides to be able to see the arguments from both sides, its not a right and wrong type thing.

I apply far more critical thinking to a guardian article because I know its playing to my biases.

michaels

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said: Anyway, I am not too worried about losing credibility on this board. Credibility on here is only achieved by saying what people want to hear.  I would be more worried if I lost the conviction to express a view that is at odds with the received “wisdom” of this forum.

However when you post hyperbole, you lose credibility not likes.

So whoever posted this little gem of hyperbole must be seriously lacking credibility.

Toyota seems to be doing everything possible to become known as one of the most despicable corporations on the face of the Earth.

Well that depends, has he or she got a history of posting hyperbole?
Or standing behind articles laden with inaccuracies?

I mean it was back in March? April? When you stood behind the article telling us all that chargers in Glasgow were not free, even though I told you through my own experience and with proof from the network running the chargers, it wasn't true.

I have to say, that damaged your credibility. 

It's like a plusses and minuses thing.
You post 5 good well thought out points, you get plus 5 credibility,  you then post silly hyperbole and you lose a point, and go down to 4.

When you target a user very obviously, you lose many more points.

You don't like Martyn, ok we all get it.

Cool, now can we move on without the hyperbole?

I think it was April but haven’t looked back. Did I actually say that all chargers were free?  I think the article said that Glasgow council had taken the decision to move from free to chargeable chargers. By all means trawl back through the posts and prove me wrong but at the end of the day we are arguing about semantics. Glasgow is presumably now rolling out paid chargers if it hasn’t done so already.

I don’t dislike Mart anymore than I dislike you. I don’t know either of you. I don’t like some of his posts but I like others. 

Nope. Glasgow chargers still free bar around half a dozen of the hundred or so.

The decision to start charging (which is what I was referring to) was taken in April to start from May 1st. I imagine there are hardware changes to be implemented. It’s coming. 

https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/electric-car-charging-fees-introduced-20336627

Strangely enough I've read the Glasgow live article too, but because I have an open mind (sometimes) I read the article as it was and didn't apply my biases, and if you do that, you will see its an opinion piece, like most of the daily express articles.
The writers opinion was they were going to be charging for charging come May 1st, I have to tell you its 3 months later, the network operator has changed and they are still free (for now), so where opinion meets facts, I go with facts.

If you think the express and mail have high reporting standards, then you are seriously mistaken.
The mail used to be the more rabid, but the express has sunk to the bottom of that particular mountain.
Try search terms for sturgeon and crushed... that will give you an idea of how rabid that rag is.

BBC, yeah they have done their very best to hide the most crushing failures of the current government, and are most definitely right wing.
You are too, most people can see that from your postings, and thats OK, I'm left wing, and thats OK too, most will see that from my postings, you need both sides to be able to see the arguments from both sides, its not a right and wrong type thing.

I apply far more critical thinking to a guardian article because I know its playing to my biases.

The BBC 'agenda' is unashamedly full of left wing topics even if they try and treat each item in a neutral way - they team up frequently with the guardian to fund/ work on the anti-capitalist 'scoops'

Solarchaser

michaels said:

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said: Anyway, I am not too worried about losing credibility on this board. Credibility on here is only achieved by saying what people want to hear.  I would be more worried if I lost the conviction to express a view that is at odds with the received “wisdom” of this forum.

However when you post hyperbole, you lose credibility not likes.

So whoever posted this little gem of hyperbole must be seriously lacking credibility.

Toyota seems to be doing everything possible to become known as one of the most despicable corporations on the face of the Earth.

Well that depends, has he or she got a history of posting hyperbole?
Or standing behind articles laden with inaccuracies?

I mean it was back in March? April? When you stood behind the article telling us all that chargers in Glasgow were not free, even though I told you through my own experience and with proof from the network running the chargers, it wasn't true.

I have to say, that damaged your credibility. 

It's like a plusses and minuses thing.
You post 5 good well thought out points, you get plus 5 credibility,  you then post silly hyperbole and you lose a point, and go down to 4.

When you target a user very obviously, you lose many more points.

You don't like Martyn, ok we all get it.

Cool, now can we move on without the hyperbole?

I think it was April but haven’t looked back. Did I actually say that all chargers were free?  I think the article said that Glasgow council had taken the decision to move from free to chargeable chargers. By all means trawl back through the posts and prove me wrong but at the end of the day we are arguing about semantics. Glasgow is presumably now rolling out paid chargers if it hasn’t done so already.

I don’t dislike Mart anymore than I dislike you. I don’t know either of you. I don’t like some of his posts but I like others. 

Nope. Glasgow chargers still free bar around half a dozen of the hundred or so.

The decision to start charging (which is what I was referring to) was taken in April to start from May 1st. I imagine there are hardware changes to be implemented. It’s coming. 

https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/electric-car-charging-fees-introduced-20336627

Strangely enough I've read the Glasgow live article too, but because I have an open mind (sometimes) I read the article as it was and didn't apply my biases, and if you do that, you will see its an opinion piece, like most of the daily express articles.
The writers opinion was they were going to be charging for charging come May 1st, I have to tell you its 3 months later, the network operator has changed and they are still free (for now), so where opinion meets facts, I go with facts.

If you think the express and mail have high reporting standards, then you are seriously mistaken.
The mail used to be the more rabid, but the express has sunk to the bottom of that particular mountain.
Try search terms for sturgeon and crushed... that will give you an idea of how rabid that rag is.

BBC, yeah they have done their very best to hide the most crushing failures of the current government, and are most definitely right wing.
You are too, most people can see that from your postings, and thats OK, I'm left wing, and thats OK too, most will see that from my postings, you need both sides to be able to see the arguments from both sides, its not a right and wrong type thing.

I apply far more critical thinking to a guardian article because I know its playing to my biases.

The BBC 'agenda' is unashamedly full of left wing topics even if they try and treat each item in a neutral way - they team up frequently with the guardian to fund/ work on the anti-capitalist 'scoops'

😂😂😂  Good one.

Martyn1981

New(ish) product that is popping up on all the BEV Youtube news threads. It's similar to roadside pop up chargers, but you bring the 'up' part, and simply plug it into the ground part. [Edit - The lance will have a RRP of £400. M.]

Here's a link to their website, and if you watch the illustration at the top for 30s it shows the unit in operation. Looks like an excellent solution to on road charging, and trials are being run in the UK.

WHAT ARE WE HIDING?
DISCOVER FLAT & FLUSH ON STREET EV CHARGING

News article:

Trojan Energy bags £4m for 'flat and flush' pavement EV charging points

Aberdeen-based Trojan Energy has secured £4.1 million of funding to support an on-street system that is set to make electric vehicle charging more accessible.

The company's 'flat and flush' EV charging points take up less pavement space than the more familiar bulky ones, which means more can be installed.

Trojan says this will make it easier for the estimated 10 million people in the UK who don't have off-street parking to own an EV. Users only need to carry a charging ‘lance’, which plugs in to a socket-like point embedded in the pavement.

EVandPV

Martyn1981 said:

New(ish) product that is popping up on all the BEV Youtube news threads. It's similar to roadside pop up chargers, but you bring the 'up' part, and simply plug it into the ground part. [Edit - The lance will have a RRP of £400. M.]

Here's a link to their website, and if you watch the illustration at the top for 30s it shows the unit in operation. Looks like an excellent solution to on road charging, and trials are being run in the UK.

WHAT ARE WE HIDING?
DISCOVER FLAT & FLUSH ON STREET EV CHARGING

News article:

Trojan Energy bags £4m for 'flat and flush' pavement EV charging points

Aberdeen-based Trojan Energy has secured £4.1 million of funding to support an on-street system that is set to make electric vehicle charging more accessible.

The company's 'flat and flush' EV charging points take up less pavement space than the more familiar bulky ones, which means more can be installed.

Trojan says this will make it easier for the estimated 10 million people in the UK who don't have off-street parking to own an EV. Users only need to carry a charging ‘lance’, which plugs in to a socket-like point embedded in the pavement.

Saw this the other day and thought it a great idea but I'm wondering how you stop them getting ICE'd in areas with no traffic wardens ??