Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

That energy cost per mile figure posted by @Martyn1981 is useful.  4 pence per mile.
Compares to an ICE at around 12 pence per mile.
Both figures match the current AMAP rates quite closely.

I still think this could be an obstacle for many to move from ICE to EV.  Trying to compare "like-for-like" as closely as it is possible to.  Brand new £30k gets an ICE, high-spec Mondeo, 5-Series, A4 or similar.  TM3LR £50k or high-spec e-NIRO £40k.

At an energy cost delta of 8 pence per mile, that £10k or greater capital difference takes at least 125k miles to break-even.  Many people would consider that to be the full life expectancy of a car.

For the ICE, the plethora of nearly-new pre-reg, ex-fleet vehicles mean that the initial outlay can be significantly less and still provide a very desirable car to drive, own, and impress the neighbours.

Sounds about right.
I suppose the other factors to take into account are servicing and maintenance. With Tesla's (and I assume other BEV's(?)) less servicing is required. The TM3 needs an a/c service every 6yrs, and brake fluid should be checked every 2yrs or so, but mileage seems less important, plus of course brake pad wear is minimal.
One TMX owner who gave me advice, said they'd just had their car serviced for the first time since buying, after 3yrs, for the MOT.
So ..... and I'm not sure how to do the maths here, but for an ICEV, that 600 mile trip will have 'consumed' 600 miles of the car's service, and 600 miles of the fluids, engine/gearbox wear and tear etc too.

Lastly, you mention that 125k would be considered the life expectancy of a car, which I'd agree with too, at which point wear and tear, and rising maintenance costs would most likely reduce the ICEV's value down to almost nothing, whereas a BEV should be absolutely fine, and a Tesla hopefully good for 500k miles both the motor(s) and battery. In fact I think it's the reduced depreciation that currently gives BEVs the lower TCO v's an ICEV.

Tesloop, who run a car service from LA to Las Vegas have 'done' some interesting calcs for their cars which are somewhere north of 300k miles now. Not only have the lower running costs meant they are cheaper than 'an' ICEV, but they pointed out that somewhere around 100k - 150k miles, they would have to compare to a second, and then later a third ICEV, since running ultra high mileage ICEV's becomes too expensive due to the ever rising maintenance costs.

Of course the higher purchase cost can now be avoided by leasing a BEV. That way the monthly cost of ownership will hopefully be less than that for an ICEV, immediately.

But enough of my waffle, what really matters is those battery costs, which continue to fall, so if we reach purchase price parity in the next 5yrs, it all becomes academic.

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

QrizB said:

at current battery prices of ~US$100/kWh adding a 60kWh battery will cost US$6000 / GBP4200 which gets the break-even mileage down to 52k.

Is that currency exchange rate applicable in this case?
It may be the correct exchange rate, but other factors (like rip-off-Britain) come into play:
TM3 LR in US$ 48,990:
https://www.tesla.com/model3/design#overview
TM3 LR in £ 48,490
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/model3/design?redirect=no#overview
(Not sure if those links will work as intended to take to the correct currency pages.)

I know the same type of issue affects ICE car-pricing, so it would presumably affect the battery costs in EV / replacement?

For comparison though, you need to remember that US prices don't include local taxes, since state taxes vary, whereas UK prices will include VAT. We also need to consider shipping costs and import duties, both of which will be avoided for US to US deliveries. Fingers crossed, as I've mentioned before, when Berlin comes on line, they should be producing Y's, and later 3's at a lower production cost than the US, and there won't be shipping* and (hopefully) import taxes.

*I'm making a distinction between shipping (say from the US or China), and 'regular' delivery costs. 

silverwhistle

Grumpy_chap said:

That energy cost per mile figure posted by @Martyn1981 is useful.  4 pence per mile.

I still can't give a realistic energy cost for mine as I haven't been beyond the range of the car. The only rapid charge I've done was £2 worth as a test on CCS but apart from that a combination of free supermarket, (free) solar on granny and cheap (or free!) on Agile. Last week I charged 20~kWh for 12p total, so fuel costs at the moment don't really get much thought. I certainly feel guilty about the capital tied up, but aged parent was reassuringly supportive when I expressed my guilt! I'll be keeping the car a long time unless a win on the lottery comes along [which might be a bit difficult ;-) ].  With the prospect of a relaxation in lockdown I'll be reviewing costs after some longer journeys.  

EVandPV

silverwhistle said:

Grumpy_chap said:

That energy cost per mile figure posted by @Martyn1981 is useful.  4 pence per mile.

I still can't give a realistic energy cost for mine as I haven't been beyond the range of the car. The only rapid charge I've done was £2 worth as a test on CCS but apart from that a combination of free supermarket, (free) solar on granny and cheap (or free!) on Agile. Last week I charged 20~kWh for 12p total, so fuel costs at the moment don't really get much thought. I certainly feel guilty about the capital tied up, but aged parent was reassuringly supportive when I expressed my guilt! I'll be keeping the car a long time unless a win on the lottery comes along [which might be a bit difficult ;-) ].  With the prospect of a relaxation in lockdown I'll be reviewing costs after some longer journeys.  

Likewise, I haven't had to use a public charger due to running out of charge and in fact haven't used one at all since getting a home charger 18 months ago.
Admittedly I'm a low mileage driver, 6-7k mikes a year, but charging at home on Octopus Go at 5p/kwh gets the cost of a charge down to around 1p a mile.
Given the average daily commute is around 30 miles, that's seriously cheap running costs for a heck of a lot of people, even without pv.

michaels

EVandPV said:

silverwhistle said:

Grumpy_chap said:

That energy cost per mile figure posted by @Martyn1981 is useful.  4 pence per mile.

I still can't give a realistic energy cost for mine as I haven't been beyond the range of the car. The only rapid charge I've done was £2 worth as a test on CCS but apart from that a combination of free supermarket, (free) solar on granny and cheap (or free!) on Agile. Last week I charged 20~kWh for 12p total, so fuel costs at the moment don't really get much thought. I certainly feel guilty about the capital tied up, but aged parent was reassuringly supportive when I expressed my guilt! I'll be keeping the car a long time unless a win on the lottery comes along [which might be a bit difficult ;-) ].  With the prospect of a relaxation in lockdown I'll be reviewing costs after some longer journeys.  

Likewise, I haven't had to use a public charger due to running out of charge and in fact haven't used one at all since getting a home charger 18 months ago.
Admittedly I'm a low mileage driver, 6-7k mikes a year, but charging at home on Octopus Go at 5p/kwh gets the cost of a charge down to around 1p a mile.
Given the average daily commute is around 30 miles, that's seriously cheap running costs for a heck of a lot of people, even without pv.

On Saturday I had filled up to 100% and drove 60 miles going down to 25% so about 15kwh that cost 16p each (£2.40) - 4p per mile.

I then though I might need to drop my DD1 that evening so dropped in to use the free fast charger at the local Nissan dealers and filled up to 85% in 20 mins, no cost for 12kwh.  In the end DD1 decided not to go out so I plugged the car into the V2G and exported 10kwh receiving 26p / unit - total £2.60

Not sure what the overall cost per mile was....

EVandPV

michaels said:

EVandPV said:

silverwhistle said:

Grumpy_chap said:

That energy cost per mile figure posted by @Martyn1981 is useful.  4 pence per mile.

I still can't give a realistic energy cost for mine as I haven't been beyond the range of the car. The only rapid charge I've done was £2 worth as a test on CCS but apart from that a combination of free supermarket, (free) solar on granny and cheap (or free!) on Agile. Last week I charged 20~kWh for 12p total, so fuel costs at the moment don't really get much thought. I certainly feel guilty about the capital tied up, but aged parent was reassuringly supportive when I expressed my guilt! I'll be keeping the car a long time unless a win on the lottery comes along [which might be a bit difficult ;-) ].  With the prospect of a relaxation in lockdown I'll be reviewing costs after some longer journeys.  

Likewise, I haven't had to use a public charger due to running out of charge and in fact haven't used one at all since getting a home charger 18 months ago.
Admittedly I'm a low mileage driver, 6-7k mikes a year, but charging at home on Octopus Go at 5p/kwh gets the cost of a charge down to around 1p a mile.
Given the average daily commute is around 30 miles, that's seriously cheap running costs for a heck of a lot of people, even without pv.

On Saturday I had filled up to 100% and drove 60 miles going down to 25% so about 15kwh that cost 16p each (£2.40) - 4p per mile.

I then though I might need to drop my DD1 that evening so dropped in to use the free fast charger at the local Nissan dealers and filled up to 85% in 20 mins, no cost for 12kwh.  In the end DD1 decided not to go out so I plugged the car into the V2G and exported 10kwh receiving 26p / unit - total £2.60

Not sure what the overall cost per mile was....

That's a pretty decent export rate !
Which V2G trial are you on ?

Solarchaser

I believe the ovo one as I was trying to get on at same time but had too much solar

michaels

EVandPV said:

michaels said:

EVandPV said:

silverwhistle said:

Grumpy_chap said:

That energy cost per mile figure posted by @Martyn1981 is useful.  4 pence per mile.

I still can't give a realistic energy cost for mine as I haven't been beyond the range of the car. The only rapid charge I've done was £2 worth as a test on CCS but apart from that a combination of free supermarket, (free) solar on granny and cheap (or free!) on Agile. Last week I charged 20~kWh for 12p total, so fuel costs at the moment don't really get much thought. I certainly feel guilty about the capital tied up, but aged parent was reassuringly supportive when I expressed my guilt! I'll be keeping the car a long time unless a win on the lottery comes along [which might be a bit difficult ;-) ].  With the prospect of a relaxation in lockdown I'll be reviewing costs after some longer journeys.  

Likewise, I haven't had to use a public charger due to running out of charge and in fact haven't used one at all since getting a home charger 18 months ago.
Admittedly I'm a low mileage driver, 6-7k mikes a year, but charging at home on Octopus Go at 5p/kwh gets the cost of a charge down to around 1p a mile.
Given the average daily commute is around 30 miles, that's seriously cheap running costs for a heck of a lot of people, even without pv.

On Saturday I had filled up to 100% and drove 60 miles going down to 25% so about 15kwh that cost 16p each (£2.40) - 4p per mile.

I then though I might need to drop my DD1 that evening so dropped in to use the free fast charger at the local Nissan dealers and filled up to 85% in 20 mins, no cost for 12kwh.  In the end DD1 decided not to go out so I plugged the car into the V2G and exported 10kwh receiving 26p / unit - total £2.60

Not sure what the overall cost per mile was....

That's a pretty decent export rate !
Which V2G trial are you on ?

Solarchaser said:

I believe the ovo one as I was trying to get on at same time but had too much solar

Correct, about half way through the two year trial but they have offered the same terms to those who finish the trial at present.

Also get 26p per unit for any solar export so we now go to great lengths to try and avoid own use, the opposite of previously when we were on deemed export.  Our 3.68kw pv invertor was not too large for the dno to accept in addition to the v2g unit.

Post trial I would be interested to see what could be achieved using the octopus time of use import and export tariffs in conjunction with each other - basically buying leccy overnight and exporting between 4pm and 7pm there should be a decent profit on the turn....Octopus cap the import rate but not the export rate so at some points there could be massive arbitrage profits available....

EVandPV

£300m investment to fuel electric car take-up

The UK's energy regulator has approved plans to invest £300m in low carbon projects including support for 3,550 charging points for electric vehicles.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57225856.amp

Martyn1981

Great news for UK BEV's. But do take care as the article uses a mix of terms, such as chargers, charging stations and charging points - I suspect the numbers all refer to individual chargers, which will commonly be grouped together in small numbers, but I'm not 100% sure.

Britain’s electric car charging network to get £300m boost

Britain’s energy regulator is investing £300m to help triple the number of ultra-rapid charging points for electric vehicles across the country, as part of efforts to accelerate the UK’s shift to clean energy.

Ofgem will use the cash to build infrastructure supporting 3,550 newcharging points, including 1,800 ultra-rapid charging sites at motorway service stations. There are currently just 918 ultra-rapid charging stations across the country.

The project will also aim to support another 1,750 standard chargers in towns and cities.