Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Martyn1981

JKenH said:

Martyn1981 said:

JKenH said:

Martyn1981 said:

Solarchaser said:

Martyn1981 said:

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

Erm no.
Firstly you are not generating heat, the engine becomes an air pump, since no fuel is being burned,  and so actually you cool everything down, including your coolant,  and because you are pumping air this cleans out the crankcase,  so that when you press the go pedal again, nice clean air goes into the engine, so you get a more efficient burn, and more energy per cycle.
Since you will be in a high gear, the biggest restriction to your speed will be friction of tyres on road and the air pressure building up in front of the car... faster car = more air resistance to overcome.

Talking about internal combustion engines here.

I mean, I like your theory and the thought you have put into it, but as someone who has spent a fair bit of time making my engine (and many others) as efficient at putting out two or three times their manufactured power as possible,  I assure you it doesn't work that way.

I realise this is taking the thread even further away from EV news but I do need to respond to that.

If, as you say, your engine is acting as an air pump, what is driving it? The kinetic energy of the car, of course, the turning of the wheels is turning the engine over. All that compressing of air inside the engine generates heat. It’s basic physics, compressing air requires an input of energy and produces heat. Just think of your bicycle pump, it gets hot as you use it. 

I realise we are not going to agree which is the most efficient approach but as it seems we can’t even agree on basic physics, perhaps we should leave it there.

It's not just the physics, it's also reality. Firstly all your claims are based on the ability to gain speed, so you have to be below the speed limit and the road conditions. But more importantly, have you driven a car the last 30yrs??? in an overgear (top gear) you don't get much engine braking, so I think you are applying extreme example theories to real life, and it simply ain't so.

Exactly. 
Your ice engine in normal mode runs 700-900c, if you think that pumping only air heats that up.... no!

I have exaust gas temperature (egt) on my own car. I can 100% assure you regardless of theory. Decel definitely cools, not heats

But it is funny listening to these edge case theories instead of applying logic and reality. Then we have that post from Ken about the harshness of full regen, yes, as I said a while back, it will press you into the seat belt, it's brilliant to have that much regen if you need it, but ....... do I really need to point this out .......... you don't get the full regen on lift off till after the zero then low regen. So it's entirely the choice of the driver how much of full regen to 'deploy' when driving in 'standard' mode. If that driver is making his family ill, then it's entirely down to bad driving, the same as point, squirt, brake driving in an ICEV from light to lights will do.

This is possibly the silliest attempt to dig the deepest hole I've ever read on here (G&E), and that includes some of MR C's classics.

BTW, Wifey started off using low regen on her profile, but switched to standard after a few days. But she still drives in chill mode as she likes her eyeballs to stay where they are when she accelerates. 

This all does sound very much like Tesla fanboy stuff. Tesla remove an option from the car and the fanboys run around saying you didn’t need it anyway and it is an improvement (more efficient). 

Had anyone suggested that it might be a good idea previously? No. But apparently it now is. Tesla have been making cars for a decade and have just decided that no one need two levels of regen. No announcement, no explanation, it just disappears and that just happens to coincide with EPA range increases. 

You say “So a non story, other than Tesla almost certainly knowing better than us how to maximise efficiency of their cars.”

There are numerous reports of motion sickness induced by regen other than the one I quoted but your response is that it is entirely down to bad driving, i.e. totally dismissive. 

A lot depends on the way you drive and not everyone can be as good as you and @Solarchaser, always able to find that sweet spot, so the absence of a low regen option will lead to more jerky progress for many. Some people are more nervous and still drive the old fashioned way of lifting off the accelerator and covering the brake when they anticipate a hazard ahead, perhaps a pedestrian standing at a crossing. In that situation with standard regen it will, as you say above, press you into the seat belt. That does not make for smooth progress or a comfortable ride for passengers. Perhaps you regard these as edge cases but others may not.

For many people transitioning to an EV it could be quite a shock and not a great selling point. 

I am not saying it is the end of the world but I am surprised that you cannot see anything negative about it and feel the need to defend it so vigorously.  I suppose we can all be blinded by something we believe in. 

Ahh the fanboy argument again, you do like that one.
Do you campaign to have the power of car brakes reduced in case someone uses them too hard too.
BTW I'm not defending it vigorously, I'm simply laughing at your attempts to create something negative on this thread, like the others, and your fuel wasting tips for ICEV driving. In fact I'm doing almost nothing, just posting the odd comment, I'm certainly not trawling the internet trying to find negative examples to post like somebody.
Keep smiling, and remember not to brake too hard for no reason, naughty Brembo, naughty!

Edit - Perhaps I shouldn't just laugh at you as that may be seen as 'feeding'. So to address your point attempting to suggest myself (and Solarchaser) are, or think we are, better than average drivers, I would suggest you may have drawn the average line incorrectly. I thought what he said, and I have said reflects entirely normal driving.
You drive down a road, and from experience you have learnt what 30mph in an ICEV is, and after adjusting for the lack of gear changes and NVH in a BEV you quickly adjust to the new 30mph norm. If you are erratically speeding up and down, or switching directly from power to full regen, then I would suggest that you are not average, looking up to me (and others), but perhaps looking up to those of us who are simply average.

Your example of lifting off for a pedestrian is one of ICEV v's BEV. Once you drive a BEV you learn not to lift off fully and cover the brake, but to lift off partially removing power or beginning to add some regen. Your example requires creating a nonsensical extreme scenario, and is as silly as suggesting that an ICEV driver slams on the brakes unnecessarily. In those situations it is the nut behind the steering wheel that is the problem.

Lastly I note that you began this silliness by suggesting you knew better, and that the change would not be more efficient. But now you seem to have spiraled off on different tangents, just to maintain the disruption, when it became clear that your vehicular efficiency expertise was perhaps not ....... superior to Tesla's?

Mart, if you check back through all my other responses to you, you will find, despite lots of needling, I have ignored most of your jibes and misrepresentation of my comments. (I just don’t think it is a good idea to spend hours throwing insults at each other).This doesn’t seem to cut any ice with you. It just seems like another excuse for you to needle and misrepresent me a bit more until you provoke a reaction. Well you got one with the fanboy comment. So you decided to push a bit harder. 

So rather than ignore all your little digs I thought I would go through your last post point by point. Please excuse the formatting but I can’t be bothered to change the font for every comment so your comments and my response are separated by a -

Ahh the fanboy argument again, you do like that one. - Yes, because you are a Tesla fanboy.

Do you campaign to have the power of car brakes reduced in case someone uses them too hard too. - No, why would I, that would be silly?

BTW I'm not defending it vigorously, - Oh no? You’ve spent quite a bit of time arguing it is a good move and not one word against it. 

I'm simply laughing at your attempts to create something negative on this thread, like the others, - well, that’s because I think it is a bit negative to remove the choice of regen. Or are only positive comments about Tesla allowed?

and your fuel wasting tips for ICEV driving. - actually I have demonstrated the opposite to be the case. You are just in denial about the laws of physics.

In fact I'm doing almost nothing, just posting the odd comment, - more than the odd one, you have been battling with both me and @EricMears, and denying the science (physics), supporting @Solarchaser’s ridiculous arguments which defy the laws of physics and including a few jibes.

 I'm certainly not trawling the internet trying to find negative examples to post like somebody. - maybe you should as there are a lot about and it would have opened your eyes to how others see it. Opinion seems to be split between Tesla fanboys who think it is fine and other independent commentators who are a bit puzzled that Tesla should remove a useful option without any reason or explanation.

Keep smiling, and remember not to brake too hard for no reason, naughty Brembo, naughty! - no idea what that is about - just another childish jibe. My argument at all times is that the most efficient form of driving is to conserve kinetic energy and not waste it producing heat by braking or engine braking or using unnecessary regen.

Edit - Perhaps I shouldn't just laugh at you as that may be seen as 'feeding'. So to address your point attempting to suggest myself (and Solarchaser) are, or think we are, better than average drivers, I would suggest you may have drawn the average line incorrectly. I thought what he said, and I have said reflects entirely normal driving. - No, you and @Solarchaser are the ones portraying yourself as driving gods. I was just being sarcastic. I have to admit though on a downhill slope I can’t tell where the sweet spot is without looking at the power meter - so I am clearly inferior. 

You drive down a road, and from experience you have learnt what 30mph in an ICEV is, - there you go again, you just know what 30mph feels like as you see yourself as a good driver, I don’t as it entirely depends on reference points so I rely on my speedo.

and after adjusting for the lack of gear changes and NVH in a BEV you quickly adjust to the new 30mph norm - yes I check my Speedo.

If you are erratically speeding up and down, or switching directly from power to full regen, then I would suggest that you are not average, looking up to me (and others), but perhaps looking up to those of us who are simply average. - did I say I was erratically speeding up and down or switching from power to full regen? If I was then the change Tesla have implemented wouldn’t bother me, like it doesn’t bother you. Maybe that’s how you drive. I like to try and find the sweet spot.

Your example of lifting off for a pedestrian is one of ICEV v's BEV. Once you drive a BEV you learn not to lift off fully and cover the brake, but to lift off partially removing power or beginning to add some regen. - Yes but someone new to BEVs or someone nervous or cautious may lift off out of habit. 

Your example requires creating a nonsensical extreme scenario, - Not at all.  Someone new to BEVs or nervous does react by lifting off.

and is as silly as suggesting that an ICEV driver slams on the brakes unnecessarily. - No it is not. Covering the brake is what I was talking about and that in the Tesla will cause the driver and passenger to be pressed into the seatbelt and the dog to go flying off the back seat into the footwell, and the kids to spill their ice cream over mum’s best dress.

In those situations it is the nut behind the steering wheel that is the problem. - Ah, yes, the expert driver declaring the inferiority of anyone who happens to cause regen by lifting off as a precaution. 

Lastly I note that you began this silliness by suggesting you knew better, and that the change would not be more efficient. - I still am of that view and I doubt that I am the only one. Efficiency on an EPA rest is not the same as efficiency in the real world. Ask VW in case you are in any doubt.

But now you seem to have spiraled off on different tangents,- no I just quoted an analogy of coasting downhill in an ICE car and you (and @Solarchaser) decided to tell me I must be wrong as both of you and Jeremy Vine said so, without a basic understanding of the laws of thermodynamics. You persisted with your erroneous arguments and I put you right. 

just to maintain the disruption, - not at all but I thought you would have to throw in that old favourite of yours

when it became clear that your vehicular efficiency expertise was perhaps not ....... superior to Tesla's? - how did that become clear? It’s not possible🤣. Tesla have operated a dual level regen option for many years. Have they suddenly realised that they were wrong all the time and it wasn’t very efficient after all or did they just find that by deleting the low regen option they could score a higher mark in a lab test, just like VW did. 

Did a Tesla run over your Dog!

JKenH

World’s Top 5 EV Automotive Groups Ranked By Sales: Q1-Q3 2020

https://insideevs.com/news/451859/world-top-ev-automotive-groups-q1q3-2020/

JKenH

UPDATE: 2021 Rivian R1T Electric Pickup Truck: First Drive Wows In A Big Way

https://insideevs.com/reviews/451733/2021-rivian-r1t-electric-pickup-truck-first-drive/

Solarchaser

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

Martyn1981 said:

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

Erm no.
Firstly you are not generating heat, the engine becomes an air pump, since no fuel is being burned,  and so actually you cool everything down, including your coolant,  and because you are pumping air this cleans out the crankcase,  so that when you press the go pedal again, nice clean air goes into the engine, so you get a more efficient burn, and more energy per cycle.
Since you will be in a high gear, the biggest restriction to your speed will be friction of tyres on road and the air pressure building up in front of the car... faster car = more air resistance to overcome.

Talking about internal combustion engines here.

I mean, I like your theory and the thought you have put into it, but as someone who has spent a fair bit of time making my engine (and many others) as efficient at putting out two or three times their manufactured power as possible,  I assure you it doesn't work that way.

I realise this is taking the thread even further away from EV news but I do need to respond to that.

If, as you say, your engine is acting as an air pump, what is driving it? The kinetic energy of the car, of course, the turning of the wheels is turning the engine over. All that compressing of air inside the engine generates heat. It’s basic physics, compressing air requires an input of energy and produces heat. Just think of your bicycle pump, it gets hot as you use it. 

I realise we are not going to agree which is the most efficient approach but as it seems we can’t even agree on basic physics, perhaps we should leave it there.

It's not just the physics, it's also reality. Firstly all your claims are based on the ability to gain speed, so you have to be below the speed limit and the road conditions. But more importantly, have you driven a car the last 30yrs??? in an overgear (top gear) you don't get much engine braking, so I think you are applying extreme example theories to real life, and it simply ain't so.

Exactly. 
Your ice engine in normal mode runs 700-900c, if you think that pumping only air heats that up.... no!

I have exaust gas temperature (egt) on my own car. I can 100% assure you regardless of theory. Decel definitely cools, not heats

I think you may be referring to the temperature of the exhaust gases. A car engine is more likely to run at around 90*C. With a 1.3 bar radiator cap water will boil at 124*C. 

I’ll leave it at that.

You think when I state about reading exhaust gas temperature, that I'm talking about exhaust temperature..... well yeah 😂😂

You got your theory about the compression of air cycle causing excess heat.... where do you think that heat would be experienced?
That would be in the cylinder, so how do you read the internal temperature of the cylinder, by monitoring the gas thats exhausted from the cylinder.... guess how you do that???

What you are talking about now is engine coolant temperature. 
Very quickly and imprecisly the coolant is pushed past the cylinders and valvehead which are sitting somewhere between let's say 500-900c just for the banter, some of this heat is transferred to the water to stop the head warping away from the engine (hence why when you lose your coolant, the first thing to go is your head gasket) this transferred heat, obviously heats up the coolant which then goes through your radiator and the air rushing past the radiator fins transfers some of that heat to the air so that the coolant drops usually around 10c from top to bottom of radiator. 

So anyway, back to this downhill decel in high gear, since the cylinders are now cooling to only a couple of hundred Celsius,  the transferred heat to the coolant (and the oil) is much less, so both your coolant temperature and your oil temperature decrease.

If you have an actual guage for temperature in your car for coolant, you will tend to see this happening both as an initial drop of a couple of degrees going down the hill, and then a lag before it starts rising again going up the hill due to the thermostat doing its job at maintaining coolant temperature,  you will also see the same with oil temperature if you have a guage.

Please note I mean an actual guage, not the in car display which will generally not move between 55c and 105c and just sit in the middle so as not to scare folk who aren't mechanically minded.

Solarchaser

JKenH said:

UPDATE: 2021 Rivian R1T Electric Pickup Truck: First Drive Wows In A Big Way

https://insideevs.com/reviews/451733/2021-rivian-r1t-electric-pickup-truck-first-drive/

That Rivian is something else, and for me, far more palatable than the tesla offering,  looks futuristic without ridiculous-ness.

I'd definitely drive it as a daily and I dont even need a truck

Solarchaser

BTW just to be clear, I have no position on tesla remove the regen mode, ive never driven a tesla with and without it to see what difference it makes.

I do think if you get motion sickness from driving an ev, then its bad driving.
Unless you are the passenger,  then its someone else's bad driving.

I am a "car guy", I've done a bit of motorsport driving over the years.
Does that make me an excellent driver, or whatever the swipe was, no!

It does make me an excellent crasher, but thats a different story(s) for a different day.🙈

If you are not a car guy, cool, all good.
Just dont throw down thermodynamics when you don't understand how thermodynamics work in the engine you are trying to throw at me.
I'm not trying to do the "I've got a degree in this", nor the " I know everything, be quiet at the back", i said I knew a bit about cars, im sure I've said I've spent alot of years making alot of cars go alot faster, so without trying to be too much of a pr!ck, I did warn you that I know cars, and you still persisted.

You said the leaf you have has a more precise guage than mine, I said cool, I can only go on my experience,  yours is more relevant. 

I find it quite easy to "feel" the car, i appreciate you may not, but if you are kangarooing the car, thats bad driving.

I think I've more than said my piece on this, so I'll say no more unless invited to by someone claiming cars heat up on decel.

Peace out ✌

Martyn1981

Extracts from last week's Carbon Commentary newsletter:

7. EV sales. Respected industry guru Daniel Yergin is downbeat on EV sales saying ‘there is still no global tipping point where the benefits of new technology and business models prove so overwhelming that they obliterate the oil-fuelled personal car model that has reigned for so long’. Hmm. He says the EV share of sales could be as low as 60% in 2050. More than two thirds of the cars on the road will still be using liquid fuels. His firm projects that only 39% of new cars in Europe will be electric in 2030. However EV market share in Europe may breach 10% this year, partly because of the EU drive to reduce average emissions using costly fines. This is nearly three times the 2019 figure and will rise to about 15% next year. Yergin’s pessimism was countered by research from UBS which suggested that EVs will be as cheap to make as petrol cars by 2024, largely because the price of batteries will be less than $100 per kWh. ‘There are not many reasons left to buy an ICE car after 2025’, said a UBS analyst.

JKenH

Honda Joins Fiat in Tapping Tesla for Europe Emission Compliance

http://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/honda-joins-fiat-in-tapping-tesla-for-europe-emission-compliance-1.1516355

JKenH

Tesla fined $14M in Germany for battery recycling violation

I think a Tesla must have also run over the dog of someone very influential in Germany. 😀

https://www.autonews.com/automakers-suppliers/tesla-fined-14m-germany-battery-recycling-violation

JKenH

 VW: Virtual Investors Meeting with UBS

https://www.volkswagenag.com/presence/investorrelation/publications/presentations/2020/09_September/20200915_VW_Presentation_Bagschik_UBS.pdf