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Ectophile

Europeans Bought More Electrified Vehicles Than Diesels In September — For The First Time In History

In Europe, people bought more electrified vehicles — electric vehicles and hybrids — than diesel vehicles in September, according to JATO Dynamics. This is a first. The pandemic has already left jagged scars on the automotive industry as well as other industries across the globe.
JATO noted that new car sales dropped by 29% during the first 9 months of 2020 in Europe. The largest hit, however, was taken by vehicles with diesel, which made up 24.8% of market share last month. If you compare the market share data for diesel in 2020 versus 2010, vehicles with diesel made up 50% of the total registrations back then, twice as much.

According to Wikipedia, which is always true (!), the first production electric car was made by Thomas Parker in 1884.  Rudolf Diesel didn't patent his Diesel engine until 1895.

So I doubt that the headline above is true.

ASavvyBuyer

Martyn1981 said:

A thought has occurred to me, based on the point Eric makes, which I agree with, that the sweet spot between power and regen on the GO pedal may be hard to stay within theoretically, but that assumes something, and we may both have got it wrong .... how 'wide' is the sweet spot?

If the BEV transitions directly from power to regen, then it will be hard, but something has occurred to me, since I don't find that sweet spot hard to use at all, and that's that the software engineers, if they are any good, will have built in a dead area between the two.
For any gamers out there, you will know that most games and hardware will allow you to dial in an element of dead zone say on the controls since it's almost impossible to hold a joystick/thumbstick perfectly still, as we do 'vibrate and wobble' naturally. So to avoid crosshairs swirling, or cars shooting off tracks (in games) you can typically widen or narrow the dead zone either side of neutral.
Perhaps this applies to BEV's and the transition from power to regen. In fact I'll go further and suggest that if I can even think of it (today) then 'they' (the clever people) will have thought of it, and applied it many yesterdays ago.

I think some of what you say above is correct; but it seems to depend on the car and how it is set up.

For example, the Kia Soul, which I mainly drive appears to have a larger "dead zone" between applying power and regen, making it quite easy to "feather" the pedal in the "sweet spot" even when in Eco mode & B. Or it may be that I am just more used to driving it.

However, my wife's Zoe appears to have a smaller "dead zone" making it harder to "feather" the pedal at the "sweet spot".

JKenH

Martyn1981 said:

JKenH said:

Hypermiling makes use of the technique of gaining momentum on downhill sections and using that momentum to go up the next incline. You need the gauge to keep you in that sweet spot so you neither regen or use power going downhill, until your speed moves out of an acceptable range given the presence of other road users. It’s easy in a manual ICE car as you can just dip the clutch for more momentum but in an EV unless you put it in neutral you will always risk regen which wastes energy. Without the gauge I just don’t see how you can judge it perfectly.

Couple of problems with that. Firstly you seem to be applying ICE hypermiling rules, where all retardation is a waste, so braking on a downhill is wasteful. But for a BEV you need to compare the losses in the regen, perhaps 20%, to the increase in wind resistance losses as the vehicle speeds up rolling down a hill.
Secondly, dipping the clutch, rather than coasting in high gear will burn more petrol/diesel as the car can keep the engine turning via momentum, whereas dipping the clutch will start the fuel supply up to keep the engine spinning. I may be wrong about the technicalities, but I think this really became the case when we transitioned from carbs to fuel injection, about 30yrs ago.

Fair comment and something to bear in mind but I’m not convinced the losses from wind resistance will outweigh the savings from retaining kinetic energy.  It has, though, exercised my brain so thanks for that. 

The saving on wind resistance will only apply to the marginal difference in speed. Yes, we do need to take into account the savings from regen although I have a source in the industry who suggested 70% regen efficiency would perhaps be a more appropriate figure. We then have to take into account the inefficiencies in the EV power train (nowhere near as significant as in a fossil car but real nevertheless) which would further reduce the benefit of using the regenerated energy to get the car back up to the same speed the coasting car would have reached. I have seen a figure of 90% efficiency for the drivetrain and 95% efficiency for the inverter so we are losing in the region of 15%. I think we can assume that any difference in rolling resistance can be ignored as it shouldn’t vary significantly with speed.

Electrek put the overall figure for regen and drivetrain/conversion losses for a Tesla at 70% so let’s use that. https://electrek.co/2018/04/24/regenerative-braking-how-it-works/

Let’s say we both are travelling at 50mph at the top of the hill and by the time I reach the bottom I am travelling at 60mph and by the time I get half way up the next hill I am back to 50mph. I have used no energy. You meanwhile have travelled down the hill and back up at a constant 50mph. Instead of gaining 10mph going downhill you have recovered 70% of the energy it takes to increase your speed by 10mph. When we get to the bottom I am travelling at 60mph and you are at 50mph. We both set off up the next hill and I lose 10mph without incurring any energy input but you have to input energy to drive you up the hill, the equivalent of what I have lost in slowing down (less the difference in wind resistance between my starting speed of 60 at the foot of the hill and my finishing speed of 50mph) but you have only 70% of the energy required available from regen. Meanwhile I am significantly further down the road as I have been travelling at a higher average speed so you also have to input more energy to overcome rolling resistance and wind resistance to reach where I am. 

As far as dipping the clutch is concerned I found this on the hypermilers website. We are both right in a way. 

Neutral coasting

To maintain idle revs fuel must be consumed. This is the biggest downside of this technique compare to in gear coasting, however on the upside – your coasting distances are greatly improved.

Due to the lack of engine braking, this technique is more suited to situations where deceleration needs to be minimised, like on a motorway. Many Hypermilers adopt it on hills to further increase the coasting distances with the possibility of adding a little speed too.

Hypermiling Techniques | Hypermiling | Fuel saving Tips | Industry News | Forum

JKenH

Martyn1981 said:

EricMears said:

Martyn1981 said:

 most BEV drivers would choose at least some regen most of the time. 

I suspect that "most BEV drivers" have probably been brainwashed into thinking that regen is  'A Good Thing'   so more regen  must be better.

Those of us familiar with the Second Law of Thermodynamics realise that's not always true.

Again, I think you've misunderstood what has happened here, almost like a double negative. Tesla hasn't removed low regen, it's still there (within standard regen), they've simply removed the option not to have high (standard) regen on full lift off.
So, nothing has been imposed regarding no to low regen, it's still there for your foot to choose and use.
Regarding the Second Law of Thermodynamics, that seems irrelevant unless you are suggesting that no regen on the GO pedal is the best option, and you may believe that, that also fits with Ken's suggestion of using neutral.
But personally, I find higher levels of regen, where there is a choice, preferable, and certainly have no wish for zero regen*, which is the only situation/choice which would seem to fit your argument/desires. But I may be wrong, and most people might prefer zero regen on the GO pedal, I just don't see that as likely.

*Edit - Perhaps the Hyundai vehicles would please you. Our Ioniq has 4 choices for regen from 0 (zero) through 1, 2 and 3 (the highest). I like 2 or 3, typically 2, and would never opt for zero. But, it has something pretty cool (though I admit thinking they would be just a gimmick), and that's 'flappy paddles' behind the steering wheel at 9 and 3. Flicking these changes the regen up or down, and it's nice to use (flicking up from 2 to 3) when those pesky lights change, then flicking back down when most of the momentum has gone.

Question - would I go for low (1) to zero (0) on a motorway?
Answer - no, the much greater momentum at high speeds requires higher regen when someone cuts you up, or the traffic flow suddenly slows, or the retardation needed when you leave a motorway and need to slow on a slip road, something that in an ICEV would require some braking, not just lift off.

I test drove a couple of e-Niro’s with those paddles and really liked them. I wasn’t prepared to wait a year though for a new EV so went for the Leaf and am very happy with it particularly e-pedal which gives true one pedal driving when you want it. It does though seem to be a marmite thing. 

The beauty of Hyundai and Kia is they give you the choice of zero, low or high regen or something in between which is better than being told standard regen - like it or lump it. I believe different levels of regen work in different situations and for different people as this discussion has revealed. I just don’t see Tesla limiting it to standard as progress. 

Solarchaser

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

Weird, for me its a natural thing.
You can clearly feel when the car is pushing forward or pulling back, even the smallest amount, so keeping an "even keel" is not something I think about, I do it naturally. 

Is it not easier to find the sweet spot in D mode than in B?  In B mode the regen part of the accelerator pedal map is more aggressive (and even more so in ePedal.) You can’t ‘feather the throttle’ as precisely because there is less travel for the same amount of regen. 

Edit: Just to clarify, the comment above refers to your earlier post about driving in Eco and B. Comments below relate to the quote above about doing it naturally. 

Are you sure you can tell just from bum feel? You might think you can but in the newer Leafs the dial tells you otherwise. With the 40/62 kwh Leafs the economy/power gauge when selected is more finely calibrated and it is pretty tricky keeping it in the sweet spot as it swings from white to blue very quickly, particularly on a slightly undulating road, even a motorway. 

To maintain a constant speed requires an input of power unless you are on a downhill stretch steep enough to overcome wind resistance. When going down a slight gradient can you really judge whether the car is drawing power or regenerating or balanced perfectly between the two without reference to the power gauge? 

Hypermiling makes use of the technique of gaining momentum on downhill sections and using that momentum to go up the next incline. You need the gauge to keep you in that sweet spot so you neither regen or use power going downhill, until your speed moves out of an acceptable range given the presence of other road users. It’s easy in a manual ICE car as you can just dip the clutch for more momentum but in an EV unless you put it in neutral you will always risk regen which wastes energy. Without the gauge I just don’t see how you can judge it perfectly.

That’s just my opinion and is not in anyway intended as a criticism of your driving ability which I am sure will be pretty good if honed on the track.

Erm short version, yeah.

I have a finely tuned bum 😂😂

Longer version, I drive  a dirty diesel for work and its much rougher coming on and off accel / decel than the leaf, so its more obvious... and the track car even more so.

The leaf i find that its quite easy to feel by your bum on the strangely grippy leather seats, but then I've never driven the newer shape, so if you are saying its more sensitive,  ill have to bow to your greater knowledge obviously 🙂

Solarchaser

Martyn1981 said:

JKenH said:

Hypermiling makes use of the technique of gaining momentum on downhill sections and using that momentum to go up the next incline. You need the gauge to keep you in that sweet spot so you neither regen or use power going downhill, until your speed moves out of an acceptable range given the presence of other road users. It’s easy in a manual ICE car as you can just dip the clutch for more momentum but in an EV unless you put it in neutral you will always risk regen which wastes energy. Without the gauge I just don’t see how you can judge it perfectly.

Couple of problems with that. Firstly you seem to be applying ICE hypermiling rules, where all retardation is a waste, so braking on a downhill is wasteful. But for a BEV you need to compare the losses in the regen, perhaps 20%, to the increase in wind resistance losses as the vehicle speeds up rolling down a hill.
Secondly, dipping the clutch, rather than coasting in high gear will burn more petrol/diesel as the car can keep the engine turning via momentum, whereas dipping the clutch will start the fuel supply up to keep the engine spinning. I may be wrong about the technicalities, but I think this really became the case when we transitioned from carbs to fuel injection, about 30yrs ago.

Yep, you are right.
Its a thing of especially people of an older generation who remember carbs.

The amount of folk who say things like yeah I dipped the clutch on the downhill to save fuel.... err no, you cost yourself fuel there.
Plus decel is good in an ice engine as it helps suck out all of those horsepower eating hydrocarbons that lurk around the crankcase.

Edit, rather doing the 4th post in a row.
I think that when it comes to ev's and rolling resistance/air resistance/regen efficiency there's a point to say if you are going down and then up a mile long hill, like that road in England, I think its the m62 where in the middle between East and west there's a hill that goes on forever, and if that was the main part of your journey every day, then this kind of indepth discussion may make a 1 to maybe even 5% difference,  but for the rest of it... I mean, really you are well into the realms of diminishing returns.

But hey, everyone needs an obsession I suppose, so if hypermiling is what keeps you going, then cool.
To each, their own 😀

Solarchaser

EVandPV said:

Just a heads-up for anyone with a Zappi EV charger.
Myenergi have just launched a new web portal which has Octopus Agile integration meaning it will  automatically charge your EV during the cheapest half hourly slots.
Bit of a game changer for the Zappi making it the best home charger by some way now !

https://myenergi.info/the-new-myenergi-account-t2591.html#p24350

Excellent,  that moves the ohme charger that I was considering into second place behind the zappi (truth be told I favoured the zappi anyway, but was considering the ohme)

EVandPV

Solarchaser said:

EVandPV said:

Just a heads-up for anyone with a Zappi EV charger.
Myenergi have just launched a new web portal which has Octopus Agile integration meaning it will  automatically charge your EV during the cheapest half hourly slots.
Bit of a game changer for the Zappi making it the best home charger by some way now !

https://myenergi.info/the-new-myenergi-account-t2591.html#p24350

Excellent,  that moves the ohme charger that I was considering into second place behind the zappi (truth be told I favoured the zappi anyway, but was considering the ohme)

You won't be disappointed, it's an excellent piece of kit.
The Myenergi team are very switched on and the firmware/app just keeps getting better.
I'm sure you probably knew this already but don't forget to claim the £300 grant from the EST once you've had it installed. 👍

https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/grants-and-loans/domestic-charge-point-funding/

Martyn1981

Solarchaser said:

Martyn1981 said:

JKenH said:

Hypermiling makes use of the technique of gaining momentum on downhill sections and using that momentum to go up the next incline. You need the gauge to keep you in that sweet spot so you neither regen or use power going downhill, until your speed moves out of an acceptable range given the presence of other road users. It’s easy in a manual ICE car as you can just dip the clutch for more momentum but in an EV unless you put it in neutral you will always risk regen which wastes energy. Without the gauge I just don’t see how you can judge it perfectly.

Couple of problems with that. Firstly you seem to be applying ICE hypermiling rules, where all retardation is a waste, so braking on a downhill is wasteful. But for a BEV you need to compare the losses in the regen, perhaps 20%, to the increase in wind resistance losses as the vehicle speeds up rolling down a hill.
Secondly, dipping the clutch, rather than coasting in high gear will burn more petrol/diesel as the car can keep the engine turning via momentum, whereas dipping the clutch will start the fuel supply up to keep the engine spinning. I may be wrong about the technicalities, but I think this really became the case when we transitioned from carbs to fuel injection, about 30yrs ago.

Yep, you are right.
Its a thing of especially people of an older generation who remember carbs.

The amount of folk who say things like yeah I dipped the clutch on the downhill to save fuel.... err no, you cost yourself fuel there.
Plus decel is good in an ice engine as it helps suck out all of those horsepower eating hydrocarbons that lurk around the crankcase.

Edit, rather doing the 4th post in a row.
I think that when it comes to ev's and rolling resistance/air resistance/regen efficiency there's a point to say if you are going down and then up a mile long hill, like that road in England, I think its the m62 where in the middle between East and west there's a hill that goes on forever, and if that was the main part of your journey every day, then this kind of indepth discussion may make a 1 to maybe even 5% difference,  but for the rest of it... I mean, really you are well into the realms of diminishing returns.

But hey, everyone needs an obsession I suppose, so if hypermiling is what keeps you going, then cool.
To each, their own 😀

Totally agree. I suspect (as I've mentioned) that Ken and Eric have seen the removal of the low regen choice as a removal of low regen, which of course it isn't. Selecting 'low' regen doesn't give you low regen, it simply removes 'high' regen from the GO pedal. And selecting high regen (standard mode) doesn't remove low regen, it simply adds high regen to the GO pedal.
The transition from low to no regen then power, or power to no to low regen is unchanged on the GO pedal ...... if you stop to think about it. So a non story, other than Tesla almost certainly knowing better than us how to maximise efficiency of their cars.

Funny story, and sorta relevant. I was listening to a discussion on Radio 2 during the Jeremy Vine Show, got to be over 10yrs ago now, and Martin Lewis was on there representing MSE. The slot was about maximising car efficiency and fuel savings. It was mostly good, all about gentle acceleration, and trying to read the road ahead to minimise braking. Then just before a song break Martin suggested the dipped clutch technique. I rang in horrified (only time I've ever called the show), but was told don't worry we're fielding hundreds of calls about that. Then after the song had ended, Jeremy or Martin (can't remember) apologised and said that dipping the clutch would waste fuel.

Thinking about it, not only was there the transition to fuel injection, but probably around the same time we started to see the addition of more gears (to the range) with the top gear being an overgear with a ratio of less than 1, and top speed typically being attained in the last but one gear. That overgear made for better coasting due to reduced engine braking.

Solarchaser

EVandPV said:

Solarchaser said:

EVandPV said:

Just a heads-up for anyone with a Zappi EV charger.
Myenergi have just launched a new web portal which has Octopus Agile integration meaning it will  automatically charge your EV during the cheapest half hourly slots.
Bit of a game changer for the Zappi making it the best home charger by some way now !

https://myenergi.info/the-new-myenergi-account-t2591.html#p24350

Excellent,  that moves the ohme charger that I was considering into second place behind the zappi (truth be told I favoured the zappi anyway, but was considering the ohme)

You won't be disappointed, it's an excellent piece of kit.
The Myenergi team are very switched on and the firmware/app just keeps getting better.
I'm sure you probably knew this already but don't forget to claim the £300 grant from the EST once you've had it installed. 👍

https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/grants-and-loans/domestic-charge-point-funding/

Yeah I knew about the Scotgov extra £300, I do believe the olev has dropped from £500 to £350 though.
I've been fine with the granny up till now, but for low rate leccy charging, id need to fit a timer to the external sockets. And I just dont fancy it at all.

Time to crawl under the house and lay some 10mm t+e (and cat 5) i guess