The Alternative Green Energy Thread

Pile_o_stone

JKenH said:

EVandPV said:

Cardew said:

joefizz said:

Wonder if this week will be the tipping point between battery and hydrogen power for cars? Theres certainly going to be a lot less personal transport about, although love the idea of the new wee citroen battery car. The future of personal local transport?

How far in the future?

Unless the prices of second hand electric cars fall drastically it makes no sense(in financial terms) as 'personal local transport' for many motorists. I had a look on Autotrader today and the cheapest 2011 24kW Nissan Leafs with 70,000-80,000 miles were listed at between £5,000 and £6,000.

Many petrol cars of that age/mileage can be bought for £2,000.

I think it makes a lot of sense. Even at just 6000 miles a year, I would save around £800 a year between petrol and road tax so a £5k Leaf would pay for itself in 6 years.
That's without factoring in cheaper servicing due to less use of brakes, no exhaust, no coolant or oil.

It makes perfect sense if like most of us on here you have the money to do it but not everyone can or is prepared to commit that sort of money however much it makes sense. Look how long it took Mart to get round to buying his first EV. 

I don't know where you got the data to make that statement? For the record, I for one don't have the money to buy an EV.

 Also, you created this thread to shield yourself from accusations of 'trolling' on the official Green Energy Thread, but you undermine that when you continue to have a dig at Mart. Why not follow the wise words of Queen Else, and "Let it go".

JKenH

Pile_o_stone said:

JKenH said:

EVandPV said:

Cardew said:

joefizz said:

Wonder if this week will be the tipping point between battery and hydrogen power for cars? Theres certainly going to be a lot less personal transport about, although love the idea of the new wee citroen battery car. The future of personal local transport?

How far in the future?

Unless the prices of second hand electric cars fall drastically it makes no sense(in financial terms) as 'personal local transport' for many motorists. I had a look on Autotrader today and the cheapest 2011 24kW Nissan Leafs with 70,000-80,000 miles were listed at between £5,000 and £6,000.

Many petrol cars of that age/mileage can be bought for £2,000.

I think it makes a lot of sense. Even at just 6000 miles a year, I would save around £800 a year between petrol and road tax so a £5k Leaf would pay for itself in 6 years.
That's without factoring in cheaper servicing due to less use of brakes, no exhaust, no coolant or oil.

It makes perfect sense if like most of us on here you have the money to do it but not everyone can or is prepared to commit that sort of money however much it makes sense. Look how long it took Mart to get round to buying his first EV. 

I don't know where you got the data to make that statement? For the record, I for one don't have the money to buy an EV. Also, you created this thread to shield yourself from accusations of 'trolling' on the official Green Energy Thread, but you undermine that when you continue to have a dig at Mart. Why not follow the wise words of Queen Else, and "Let it go".

I wasn’t having a dig at Mart, just quoting an example of someone who like most of using here supports BEVs but had trouble making the maths work. I am sorry that you see it in any other way. It wasn’t intended to stir up any trouble so let’s not make any more of that reference please.

In terms of the profile of contributors, it appears self evident from the posts that most of us contributing here are property owners who have the money available to make discretionary purchases such as batteries and pv systems and quite a few of us already have, or are considering getting EVs. By using the term ”most” I was implying that more than half of the regular contributors fall into that category - not everyone. I am aware of some who do through force of circumstance lead a pecunious lifestyle but if I mention any more names it seems likely that I will offend someone just as I have already. 

In your particular case you say that you don’t have the money to buy an EV but I got the impression that you were the owner of a substantial property and have invested money in renewables. If you don’t have the money to buy an EV, even a £5-6000 one as we were discussing then that is because you genuinely can’t afford one, despite your substantial assets, or you have chosen to allocate your resources elsewhere as you don’t consider purchasing an EV to be a sensible use of your limited funds. I think that is the situation facing a large part of the population and demonstrates my case.

Dave_Fowler

Another saving for BEV owners is the free parking offered by some authorities whilst you are charging, and places like Milton Keynes (my local large shopping centre) offer free parking to all BEVs at any time.  This free parking not only saves money, but also the need to find the pay-station, queue up to pay and return to the car to display the ticket - usually in pouring rain.

Dave F

Pile_o_stone

JKenH said:

Pile_o_stone said:

JKenH said:

EVandPV said:

Cardew said:

joefizz said:

Wonder if this week will be the tipping point between battery and hydrogen power for cars? Theres certainly going to be a lot less personal transport about, although love the idea of the new wee citroen battery car. The future of personal local transport?

How far in the future?

Unless the prices of second hand electric cars fall drastically it makes no sense(in financial terms) as 'personal local transport' for many motorists. I had a look on Autotrader today and the cheapest 2011 24kW Nissan Leafs with 70,000-80,000 miles were listed at between £5,000 and £6,000.

Many petrol cars of that age/mileage can be bought for £2,000.

I think it makes a lot of sense. Even at just 6000 miles a year, I would save around £800 a year between petrol and road tax so a £5k Leaf would pay for itself in 6 years.
That's without factoring in cheaper servicing due to less use of brakes, no exhaust, no coolant or oil.

It makes perfect sense if like most of us on here you have the money to do it but not everyone can or is prepared to commit that sort of money however much it makes sense. Look how long it took Mart to get round to buying his first EV. 

I don't know where you got the data to make that statement? For the record, I for one don't have the money to buy an EV. Also, you created this thread to shield yourself from accusations of 'trolling' on the official Green Energy Thread, but you undermine that when you continue to have a dig at Mart. Why not follow the wise words of Queen Else, and "Let it go".

In your particular case you say that you don’t have the money to buy an EV but I got the impression that you were the owner of a substantial property and have invested money in renewables. If you don’t have the money to buy an EV, even a £5-6000 one as we were discussing then that is because you genuinely can’t afford one, despite your substantial assets, or you have chosen to allocate your resources elsewhere as you don’t consider purchasing an EV to be a sensible use of your limited funds. I think that is the situation facing a large part of the population and demonstrates my case.

Yep,I own a substantial property, yes I have invested money in renewables, no I don't have money to buy an EV and genuinely cannot afford to buy one despite my "substantial assets" (the car dealership unfortunately will not accept a down-payment consisting of a pile of stones taken from my house walls, or earth from my land).

 If that changes, I'll be sure to let you know.

ABrass

Cardew said:

joefizz said:

Wonder if this week will be the tipping point between battery and hydrogen power for cars? Theres certainly going to be a lot less personal transport about, although love the idea of the new wee citroen battery car. The future of personal local transport?

How far in the future?

Unless the prices of second hand electric cars fall drastically it makes no sense(in financial terms) as 'personal local transport' for many motorists. I had a look on Autotrader today and the cheapest 2011 24kW Nissan Leafs with 70,000-80,000 miles were listed at between £5,000 and £6,000.

Many petrol cars of that age/mileage can be bought for £2,000.

It'd be quite interesting to know if that holds up to deeper analysis. Namely if EVs don't devalue as much or as as low as ICEVs with age after the first few years.

The typical narrative is that EVs depreciate more than ICEs but those normally look at the first few years of life (and in the UK seem to ignore the government subsidy, but that's a rant for another day). If it stops or shelves off after that point it'd be very interesting for cost of ownership calculations.

It would also imply there's a decent market for cheap short range new EVs. Which a lot of companies seem to ignore as they are targeting 200+ miles minimum.

joefizz

Cardew said:

joefizz said:

Wonder if this week will be the tipping point between battery and hydrogen power for cars? Theres certainly going to be a lot less personal transport about, although love the idea of the new wee citroen battery car. The future of personal local transport?

How far in the future?

Unless the prices of second hand electric cars fall drastically it makes no sense(in financial terms) as 'personal local transport' for many motorists. I had a look on Autotrader today and the cheapest 2011 24kW Nissan Leafs with 70,000-80,000 miles were listed at between £5,000 and £6,000.

Many petrol cars of that age/mileage can be bought for £2,000.

The citroen ami IIRC 20 euro a month with 2 grand odd down. 

The future of personal transport is going to look a hell of a lot different to what it is now and that was before the current crisis.

All these car rental/sharing places better come up with a quick way to disinfect cars between hires/rentals...

Speaking of which, no point posting good news headlines about deliveries or manufacturing of EVs (or anything else) for the forseeable. Quick quiz, which car company refinanced its debt recently from Chinese banks on dubious terms at more than they owed, plus factory build plus enough to show a 'profit' for a quarter or so... answers on a postcard to car company soon to be owned by chinese banks competition ;-)

I just took delivery of 200 quids worth of suspension and brake parts for a 13 year old diesel car. I figure Im going to have a few weeks/months spare to do the work. By the time Im finished wheel bearings, brakes, cv joints, bushes are all going to be replaced and will give me a pretty much new suspension/braking setup. I suspect the time for cheap replacement parts and talking about EVs and all that will be on the back burner for quite some time.

joefizz

Different comment to the last post so forgive the double posting but...

..if the uk does go into lockdown its going to be interesting to see how the grid copes with the RE mix because as with other countries the power requirement should drop significantly at times and RE will (provided the wind blows) make up a more substantial mix.

JKenH

silverwhistle said:

The Daily Telegraph seems a sad little paper these days, at least what I see of it. The following headline came up on my feed, but the article itself is behind a paywall:

"Goodbye renewable energy. Hello cheap oil.

The current dual crises of oil and Covid-19b have thrown the future of renewables in to doubt"

Now maybe a sub-editor is responsible for this byline and I'm unable to read the main article, but it's a pretty p**s-poor analysis of the situation.

Sometimes it pays to read the whole article rather than jumping to conclusions. It is actually a well balanced article with a poor headline and follows the Telegraphs policy of reporting favourably on RE while maintaining objectivity. One quote as an example:

 One reason that oil and gas companies have been less motivated to invest in renewable energy, according to Wood Mackenzie’s Valentina Kretzschmar, vice president of corporate research, is that solar and wind projects have historically offered much lower rates of return than upstream oil and gas.

With crude price hovering in the $20 a barrel range today, that is no longer the case.

There is an argument put forward that in the very short term low oil prices will dent demand for AFVs but in the long term low oil prices will lead to reallocation of resources. 

Another quote:

Jamie Webster, an energy analyst at Boston Consulting Group says that sharply lower oil prices change the financial calculations on oil and gas projects – potentially pushing oil and gas companies to invest at even faster rates in to renewables. 

Solarchaser

Seems the clickbait title got you to click.
So job done for the toryGraph

JKenH

Solarchaser said:

Seems the clickbait title got you to click.
So job done for the toryGraph

Just like this one😀 It seems like the Guardian has had to lower its standards to compete.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/03/great-grandmothers-secret-to-beating-covid-19-marmalade-sandwiches?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Anyway here’s the Guardian’s take on the same story the Telegraph were running. 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/mar/12/coronovirus-poses-threat-to-climate-action-says-watchdog?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other