The Alternative Green Energy Thread

QrizB

michaels said:

JKenH said:

The renewables industry is already starting to push back against Zonal Pricing maintaining that only consumers in Northern Scotland would benefit. If this illustration is correct who is getting all the profit from charging England and Wales more? Is it perhaps offsetting subsidies? 

https://www.renewableuk.com/news-and-resources/press-releases/people-in-england-and-wales-concerned-about-higher-electricity-bills-under-scheme-to-divide-uk-up-into-different-pricing-zones/

Hmm. Looking at those regions it would look like there is an overall price increase of about £5 per Mwh - why is it not price neutral at a national level?

On one hand, that's £15 a year extra for a typical household in England and Wales and a £30 a year saving per household in Scotland. Which isn't huge but will cause complaints.

On the other hand, I'm not sure £15 per MWh is really going to motivate either high energy industries to move to Scotland, or generation to be built in England and Wales.

On the whole, it seems a bit pointless?

paul991

88 % renewable generation at the moment, probably not a record but nice to mention

QrizB

paul991 said:

88 % renewable generation at the moment, probably not a record but nice to mention

... only 6.7% fossil fuelled (~2GW of gas) and exporting 4.2GW to boot!

That's per iamkate.com:

https://grid.iamkate.com/

Exports are mostly to France, Ireland and Norway. The missing 19% is nuclear and biomass which that site lists separately from renewables (solar, wind and hydro).

Yes, the % exceed 100 as we're generating 113% of demand (the surplus is the export bit).

Edit to add screenshots. Slightly later in the day, slightly different figures.

JKenH

Yesterday was a fantastic day for renewable generation and like many others I was able to take advantage of very cheap or, at times, negative electricity prices. I doubt any of us were aware, however, of the frantic trading which on the international electricity market. The problem was, apparently, that wind forecasts, both day ahead and on the day, were out by a considerable margin. The situation fluctuated throughout the day between over demand and over supply. As a consequence last minute trades were being done, with us at times paying Belgium and France to take our excess generation and at other times gas stations on the south coast were having to be fired up to meet contracted volumes of export. Of course it is the intention that electricity will flow both ways across inter connectors to balance supply and demand - the issue yesterday was that the forecasts were so far out that it became very expensive. The situation was only redeemed because Ireland was facing even bigger problems.

The more we become reliant on renewables, the greater the likelihood will be that unexpected intra day trades will be required. Of course, these are expensive and ultimately the cost will be passed on to the consumer. With a gas dominated grid, imperfect as it may seem to some, day ahead supply planning is pretty straightforward. 

Here is the article from Kathryn Porter explaining in detail what happened yesterday.

High wind and forecasting errors cause havoc on the GB grid

https://watt-logic.com/2025/05/30/high-wind-and-forecasting-errors-cause-havoc-on-the-gb-grid/

Exiled_Tyke

It suggests to me that we need more storage solutions, greater roll out of agile TOU tariffs and specifically (addressing both of these issues) Smart EV chargers 

QrizB

"International electricity market functions as intended. More on this breaking story at six."

(That's a comment on the breathless Watt Logic story, not aimed at any forumites.)

thevilla

I found this interesting.  Almost too good to be true but I hope it is.

https://youtu.be/KYQmEipY5Wc?si=qTManPVI2MrA_Qtu

JKenH

Exiled_Tyke said:

It suggests to me that we need more storage solutions, greater roll out of agile TOU tariffs and specifically (addressing both of these issues) Smart EV chargers 

Yes, one solution may be to encourage more users to allow Octopus et al to completely control battery (home and EV) charging and discharging. When I  got solar in 2018, it came with a Moixa battery with the idea that it could be discharged remotely by Moixa (Gridshare) and I would earn from their trading activity - in effect a virtual power plant. The battery tech used, however, was not fit for purpose (i.e. my domestic use) and Moixa removed it and refunded me. 

In principle it seems a good idea but those of us who enjoy playing with our tech may be reluctant to give up control of discharging to a third party? I would, with the right financial inducement, but would there be sufficient incentive - I opted out of savings sessions this year because the incentives offered didn’t outweigh the inconvenience to me. 

I think Moixa had some success with social housing battery installations but I haven’t heard much about it recently. I don’t know if more widespread adoption would be flexible enough to respond to the unexpected shortfalls or surpluses against forecasts which was the problem on 29th May.

https://moixa.com/gridshare-how-ai-software-is-transforming-virtual-power-plants/

JKenH

This is the first case in which compulsory purchase (CP) of homes to make way for a solar farm is being considered. Residents have already begun receiving letters/questionnaires about the ownership of their properties. The story has made several newspapers who are exploiting the play on words with Domesday villages. For more information Google East Pye Solar Farm compulsory purchase. 

Local to me I am aware of a smallholder receiving a CP notice for part of his holding/buildings for one of Lincolnshire’s solar farms but no houses are involved AFAIA. 

CP is not unusual for major infrastructure projects like HS2, but this is bad PR for the government’s Net Zero push and grist to the mill for the popular press.  

First UK residents to face compulsory purchase of homes for solar farm

Residents in three 'Domesday villages' fear their homes will be the first in Britain to be compulsorily purchased to make way for the country's biggest-ever solar farm. Dozens of villagers living in Hempnall, Saxlingham and Tasburgh in Norfolk have received letters from a developer saying their homes 'may be required' to create space for East Pye Solar Project.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/first-uk-residents-face-compulsory-071634795.html

JKenH

Interesting article from the BBC. The text below is effectively their introduction to the issue of Zonal Pricing. It appears that even the BBC are now questioning the promise that renewables will deliver cheaper electricity. Is it a coincidence that this story lands the same day as the Beeb tries to win over Reform voters? https://www.thenational.scot/news/25224005.bbc-bosses-draw-plans-win-trust-reform-uk-voters/?ref=yahoo Whatever the motivation, the BBC running this content has moved the criticism of Net Zero from a predominantly right wing to a more centrist stage that is more difficult to ignore.

Britain's energy bills problem - and why firms are paid huge sums to stop producing power

The way the system currently works means a company like Ocean Winds gets what are effectively compensation payments if the system can't take the power its wind turbines are generating and it has to turn down its output.

It means Ocean winds was paid £72,000 not to generate power from its wind farms in the Moray Firth during a half-hour period on 3 June because the system was overloaded - one of a number of occasions output was restricted that day.

At the same time, 44 miles (70km) east of London, the Grain gas-fired power station on the Thames Estuary was paid £43,000 to provide more electricity.

Payments like that happen virtually every day. Seagreen, Scotland's largest wind farm, was paid £65 million last year to restrict its output 71% of the time, according to analysis by Octopus Energy. 

Balancing the grid in this way has already cost the country more than £500 million this year alone, the company's analysis shows. The total could reach almost £8bn a year by 2030, warns the National Electricity System Operator (NESO), the body in charge of the electricity network.

It's pushing up all our energy bills and calling into question the government's promise that net zero would end up delivering cheaper electricity.

Now, the government is considering a radical solution: instead of one big, national electricity market, there'll be a number of smaller regional markets, with the government gambling that this could make the system more efficient and deliver cheaper bills.

But in reality, it's not guaranteed that anyone will get cheaper bills. And even if some people do, many others elsewhere in the country could end up paying more.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdedjnw8e85o