The Alternative Green Energy Thread

JKenH

QrizB said:

thevilla said:

The £9724 price was with gas available btw.

And (in case anyone has forgotten) that gas capacity was available in the UK, and would have cost a lot less. Sadly the grid couldn't deliver it to the pocket of SE England that needed it, and the only way to prevent load shedding was to import it from continental Europe via an interconnector.

thevilla said:

Just emphasises the need for grid reinforcement and more distributed battery storage.

Exactly.

As demand is greatest in the South East would it not be sensible to site future generating capacity - nukes, new wind turbines and Heathrow size solar farms and BESS -  there thus avoiding the need for (and expense of) pylons across Lincolnshire and East Anglia? Or we could just adopt zonal pricing. 

paul991

or bring cables down the North sea to the  south East

JKenH

paul991 said:

or bring cables down the North sea to the  south East

I would love to venture my opinion as to why that won’t happen but I am sure it would get deleted for being political. 

thevilla

Greg Jackson has convinced me on zonal pricing fwiw.

JKenH

thevilla said:

Greg Jackson has convinced me on zonal pricing fwiw.

I agree, but what makes economic sense, often, is not politically acceptable. We pay different amounts for water around the country so why not electricity? 

The system we have for passing on the costs of transitioning to Net Zero is regressive as utility bills constitute a larger portion of the outgoings of the less well off. Generally, (of course there will be exceptions) it is the more affluent home owners who have solar panels and/or batteries and can deflect the costs loaded onto our bills and the subsidies some of us receive (FiT) are funded by bill payers not general taxation. I am surprised there haven’t been riots already. 

michaels

thevilla said:

Greg Jackson has convinced me on zonal pricing fwiw.

It is very complex and no doubt the howls form the losers will far outweigh the thanks of the winners.  It is also something that if enacted overnight will mean that existing decisions on energy use based on price will suddenly become 'wrong'

It sounds like economic sense to use the price to potentially shift demand and give the correct signals for building out the network but I don't understand the full nuances.

thevilla

I reckon it doesn't have to be a big bang approach.  Greg probably differs

JKenH

The renewables industry is already starting to push back against Zonal Pricing maintaining that only consumers in Northern Scotland would benefit. If this illustration is correct who is getting all the profit from charging England and Wales more? Is it perhaps offsetting subsidies? 

https://www.renewableuk.com/news-and-resources/press-releases/people-in-england-and-wales-concerned-about-higher-electricity-bills-under-scheme-to-divide-uk-up-into-different-pricing-zones/

michaels

JKenH said:

The renewables industry is already starting to push back against Zonal Pricing maintaining that only consumers in Northern Scotland would benefit. If this illustration is correct who is getting all the profit from charging England and Wales more? Is it perhaps offsetting subsidies? 

https://www.renewableuk.com/news-and-resources/press-releases/people-in-england-and-wales-concerned-about-higher-electricity-bills-under-scheme-to-divide-uk-up-into-different-pricing-zones/

Hmm. Looking at those regions it would look like there is an overall price increase of about £5 per Mwh - why is it not price neutral at a national level?

The average price increase looks to be about 0.5p per kWh, is that about 5% at a wholesale level and about 2% at a retail level?

JKenH

michaels said:

JKenH said:

The renewables industry is already starting to push back against Zonal Pricing maintaining that only consumers in Northern Scotland would benefit. If this illustration is correct who is getting all the profit from charging England and Wales more? Is it perhaps offsetting subsidies? 

https://www.renewableuk.com/news-and-resources/press-releases/people-in-england-and-wales-concerned-about-higher-electricity-bills-under-scheme-to-divide-uk-up-into-different-pricing-zones/

Hmm. Looking at those regions it would look like there is an overall price increase of about £5 per Mwh - why is it not price neutral at a national level?

The average price increase looks to be about 0.5p per kWh, is that about 5% at a wholesale level and about 2% at a retail level?

That’s what I would have expected or, in fact, cheaper overall with the Scots enjoying the biggest savings and for the rest of us cost neutral or a slight decrease. 

Edit: sorry, the illustration is looking at the wholesale price. I was assuming there would be savings on grid upgrades with Zonal Pricing but these would be reflected in the retail price.