The Alternative Green Energy Thread

Magnitio

JKenH said:

Continuing my theme of future electricity prices, I recently came across this post shared by Kathryn Porter (of Watt-Logic) on Twitter. I presume there is some substance to the figures but no doubt someone will be able to prove me wrong. 

https://x.com/kathrynporter26

I was looking for what the impact of government policies was 10 years ago and found this from 2014. Government policies actually reduced bills.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/policy-impacts-on-prices-and-bills

Something else I came across recently and hadn’t really picked up on before was that OFGEM in 2023 reduced  the Typical Domestic Consumption Value from 2900 kWh to 2700kWh, to reflect reduced consumption. This followed an earlier reduction from 3100 kWh. I don’t know the date but it was after 2019. This didn’t receive a great deal of publicity but has effectively reduced the much publicised price cap by 13% and given the impression that electricity prices haven’t risen as much as they have in reality. 

If you found it on Twitter, it must be true.

thevilla

Net zero watch.  Similar to European Research Group I expect.

JKenH

thevilla said:

Net zero watch.  Similar to European Research Group I expect.

Just another point of view. We see plenty from pro renewables sources such as PVMagazine. If the facts are wrong no doubt you have alternative figures or are you dismissing this just because it doesn’t support your preferred narrative?

JKenH

Magnitio said:

JKenH said:

Continuing my theme of future electricity prices, I recently came across this post shared by Kathryn Porter (of Watt-Logic) on Twitter. I presume there is some substance to the figures but no doubt someone will be able to prove me wrong. 

https://x.com/kathrynporter26

I was looking for what the impact of government policies was 10 years ago and found this from 2014. Government policies actually reduced bills.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/policy-impacts-on-prices-and-bills

Something else I came across recently and hadn’t really picked up on before was that OFGEM in 2023 reduced  the Typical Domestic Consumption Value from 2900 kWh to 2700kWh, to reflect reduced consumption. This followed an earlier reduction from 3100 kWh. I don’t know the date but it was after 2019. This didn’t receive a great deal of publicity but has effectively reduced the much publicised price cap by 13% and given the impression that electricity prices haven’t risen as much as they have in reality. 

If you found it on Twitter, it must be true.

Well, you said it.

ed110220

JKenH said:

thevilla said:

Net zero watch.  Similar to European Research Group I expect.

Just another point of view. We see plenty from pro renewables sources such as PVMagazine. If the facts are wrong no doubt you have alternative figures or are you dismissing this just because it doesn’t support your preferred narrative?

But not all points of view are equal. A Tufton Street think tank's "point of view" that climate change is a hoax isn't equivalent to carefully reviewed scientific research on climate change 

You don't help your cause by quoting such discredited sources. It's a bit like going on a geology forum and quoting someone who explains rock formations with Noah's flood. It's not going to encourage anyone to take you seriously.

JKenH

ed110220 said:

JKenH said:

thevilla said:

Net zero watch.  Similar to European Research Group I expect.

Just another point of view. We see plenty from pro renewables sources such as PVMagazine. If the facts are wrong no doubt you have alternative figures or are you dismissing this just because it doesn’t support your preferred narrative?

But not all points of view are equal. A Tufton Street think tank's "point of view" that climate change is a hoax isn't equivalent to carefully reviewed scientific research on climate change 

You don't help your cause by quoting such discredited sources. It's a bit like going on a geology forum and quoting someone who explains rock formations with Noah's flood. It's not going to encourage anyone to take you seriously.

The post isn’t about climate change. It is about UK electricity bills. There have been many posts and articles about renewables being cheaper than fossil fuels but that isn’t being reflected in our bills. Electricity bills are trending upwards - this post suggests that the costs of subsidies and increased network and distribution costs needed to support renewables are in fact increasing costs. If that is correct then should we dismiss it because of who said it?

I am not disputing we need to do something about climate change but that is a separate argument. This is about the increasing cost of electricity. The transition to renewables appears to come at the cost of increased consumer bills, at least in the UK. Yes, there was a blip caused by the Ukraine conflict and we are still seeing aftershocks from that, but the general trend is that electricity costs are increasing, independently of any variation in the price of gas and will continue to to do so. That may, or, may not, be a price we must pay but, either way, it is a reality we have to face and not something to sweep under the carpet because it doesn’t suit the narrative. 

ed110220

JKenH said:

ed110220 said:

JKenH said:

thevilla said:

Net zero watch.  Similar to European Research Group I expect.

Just another point of view. We see plenty from pro renewables sources such as PVMagazine. If the facts are wrong no doubt you have alternative figures or are you dismissing this just because it doesn’t support your preferred narrative?

But not all points of view are equal. A Tufton Street think tank's "point of view" that climate change is a hoax isn't equivalent to carefully reviewed scientific research on climate change 

You don't help your cause by quoting such discredited sources. It's a bit like going on a geology forum and quoting someone who explains rock formations with Noah's flood. It's not going to encourage anyone to take you seriously.

The post isn’t about climate change. It is about UK electricity bills. There have been many posts and articles about renewables being cheaper than fossil fuels but that isn’t being reflected in our bills. Electricity bills are trending upwards - this post suggests that the costs of subsidies and increased network and distribution costs needed to support renewables are in fact increasing costs. If that is correct then should we dismiss it because of who said it?

I am not disputing we need to do something about climate change but that is a separate argument. This is about the increasing cost of electricity. The transition to renewables appears to come at the cost of increased consumer bills, at least in the UK. Yes, there was a blip caused by the Ukraine conflict and we are still seeing aftershocks from that, but the general trend is that electricity costs are increasing, independently of any variation in the price of gas and will continue to to do so. That may, or, may not, be a price we must pay but, either way, it is a reality we have to face and not something to sweep under the carpet because it doesn’t suit the narrative. 

I would say if an organisation/individual is dedicated to agitating against action to prevent climate change and denies its reality that indicates either a level of dishonesty or poor judgement that discredits their other positions. Especially given the link between opposing renewables and denying climate change - this isn't an academic debate, the denial is absolutely to delay a transition from FF or to whip up the rubes (eg the crowds clapping like sealions at the circus to Trump's "drill baby drill" while LA burns).

There are plenty of studies by respected organisations, which is important on such a complex topic without resorting to a tweeted pie chart from a deeply discredited source. 

JKenH

I am sure we could debate, ad infinitum, the motivations of commentators on both sides of the climate debate. If you are aware, however, of any sources discussing the impact of renewables on UK electricity bills (in terms of actual numbers) then please post them. It should be possible to have a discussion on the impact on bills independently of ideology but I am fearful that some may see any suggestion that renewables actually increase electricity bills as back door climate denial and try to shut it down. Can we perhaps try and look at the impact on bills objectively like, say, the government of the day might have to do. I appreciate everything in politics is a balancing act and getting the facts right is an essential precursor to any decision. It isn’t as easy as saying it’s got to be done whatever the cost.

Exiled_Tyke

Well Kathryn's Twitter (sorry X) profile tells us all we need to know about her perspective, bias and propensity for objective reporting! 

Kathryn Porter

@KathrynPorter26

Independent energy consultant helping businesses with projects across the electricity, gas and oil industries.

paul991

profile not available, think you found her motives.
but it has to be said the pricing of most things is set by the government and its been so easy to add little extras onto your electricity bills as opposed to increasing tax openly