The Alternative Green Energy Thread

JKenH

michaels said:

Useful numbers. However I wonder if day ahead prices are the best comparator. Might make more sense to compare against the 25p retail price. Not that they are negligible even in this context.

Edit: do we know if the £54bn is all extra spend as no doubt there is already some grid spend in the 25p?

I used generation rather than retail costs to compare CCGT with wind costs. 

There is an element of transmission costs (£24.50) in the annual electricity bill broken down as in the illustration below. Network investment accounts for  £10.78 of this or around 0.4p/kWh.



https://www.nationalgrid.com/electricity-transmission/who-we-are/breaking-down-your-bill

JKenH

Households face £3bn bill to switch off turbines during high winds

British households face costs of up to £3bn a year to pay windfarmsand other electricity producers to stop generating, according to the country’s grid operator.

The National Energy System Operator (Neso) has warned of the looming bill as the power grid struggles to keep pace with the expansion of renewables.

Other industry experts fear that the real cost could end up much higher.

Octopus Energy, the nation’s leading power supplier, estimates that by 2030 constraint payments could be adding £6bn a year to consumer bills – roughly equating to £200 a household.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/01/25/households-face-3bn-bill-switch-off-turbines-high-winds/

JKenH

Heckington solar farm approved after £5m donation despite huge local opposition. BBC reported the development without mention of the donations made by Dale Vince but the previous night he had been taken to task on BBC Question Time on the subject of donations and political influence. It was unfortunate timing of the announcement for Dale Vince. 

Solar farms are 'slap in the face' - councillor 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy8xkppzrxjo

Clip from BBC Question time:

Dale Vince Last night: “I don’t seek influence.” 

Today: Ecotricity Heck Fen Solar Farm Approved

https://x.com/sirwg202110/status/1882922472699465770

Full story about the local battle over the Heckington Solar Farm in this link.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/01/24/miliband-approves-solar-farm-built-major-labour-donor/


Edited to expand on comments

JKenH

I wondered why wind generation wasn’t ever over 20 GW yesterday.

https://x.com/kathrynporter26

QrizB

JKenH said:

I wondered why wind generation wasn’t ever over 20 GW yesterday.

I would be nice to source and substantiate that statement. As far as I can tell, the Met Office haven't recorded any gusts (let alone sustained) above 100mph and most turbines are happy with sustained speeds in excess of 50mph, so "double" seems rather an exaggeration?

Here's what the Ripple team had to say about Kirk Hill:

Output dropped a bit this morning; the Kirk Hill turbines reach maximum power at about 14 metres per second or 30mph, rotating at about 17rpm. However output starts to drop slightly as the blades pitch to protect the turbines in very high winds, and this is starting to happen with some of the turbines today, which is why output has reduced from max power. They only cut out when winds average 34 metres per second (75mph) over a 10-minute period - they can withstand gusts more intense than this whilst still operating. The highest gust recorded this morning was 100mph.

3pm - All the turbines are currently at 0MW output; they have automatically gone to this output to protect themselves due to vibrations resulting from the intensity of some of the gusts. Although average wind speeds have been below the threshold above which they would turn off, the gusts in this particular storm have been especially violent.

As a few members have asked, there's been no Load Management Scheme (LMS) curtailment of the site today.

So wind speed wasn't the issue at Kirk Hill; it was turbulence. It would be interesting to see how other wind farms coped.

michaels

JKenH said:

Heckington wind farm approved after £5m donation despite huge local opposition. BBC reported the development without mention of the donations made by Dale Vince but the previous night he had been taken to task on BBC Question Time on the subject of donations and political influence. It was unfortunate timing of the announcement for Dale Vince. 

Solar farms are 'slap in the face' - councillor 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy8xkppzrxjo

Clip from BBC Question time:

Dale Vince Last night: “I don’t seek influence.” 

Today: Ecotricity Heck Fen Solar Farm Approved

https://x.com/sirwg202110/status/1882922472699465770

Full story about the local battle over the Heckington Wind Farm in this link.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/01/24/miliband-approves-solar-farm-built-major-labour-donor/


Edited to expand on comments

Donor purchases influence shock.

Also it seems you are the only one calling a solar farm a wind farm (twice)?

JKenH

michaels said:

JKenH said:

Heckington wind farm approved after £5m donation despite huge local opposition. BBC reported the development without mention of the donations made by Dale Vince but the previous night he had been taken to task on BBC Question Time on the subject of donations and political influence. It was unfortunate timing of the announcement for Dale Vince. 

Solar farms are 'slap in the face' - councillor 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy8xkppzrxjo

Clip from BBC Question time:

Dale Vince Last night: “I don’t seek influence.” 

Today: Ecotricity Heck Fen Solar Farm Approved

https://x.com/sirwg202110/status/1882922472699465770

Full story about the local battle over the Heckington Wind Farm in this link.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/01/24/miliband-approves-solar-farm-built-major-labour-donor/


Edited to expand on comments

Donor purchases influence shock.

Also it seems you are the only one calling a solar farm a wind farm (twice)?

Freudian slip, perhaps. Corrected now. Thanks.

QrizB

There is a proposal for a solar farm new us. I went along to one of the public meetings. I've never seen so many NIMBYs in one place. Complaining about the effect on biodiversity (a field of wheat is a monoculture), on the landscape (the proposed site is at the side of a major road and not visible from a distance), there were even a couple of people complaining that it would be noisy!

JKenH

QrizB said:

JKenH said:

I wondered why wind generation wasn’t ever over 20 GW yesterday.

I would be nice to source and substantiate that statement. As far as I can tell, the Met Office haven't recorded any gusts (let alone sustained) above 100mph and most turbines are happy with sustained speeds in excess of 50mph, so "double" seems rather an exaggeration?

Here's what the Ripple team had to say about Kirk Hill:

Output dropped a bit this morning; the Kirk Hill turbines reach maximum power at about 14 metres per second or 30mph, rotating at about 17rpm. However output starts to drop slightly as the blades pitch to protect the turbines in very high winds, and this is starting to happen with some of the turbines today, which is why output has reduced from max power. They only cut out when winds average 34 metres per second (75mph) over a 10-minute period - they can withstand gusts more intense than this whilst still operating. The highest gust recorded this morning was 100mph.

3pm - All the turbines are currently at 0MW output; they have automatically gone to this output to protect themselves due to vibrations resulting from the intensity of some of the gusts. Although average wind speeds have been below the threshold above which they would turn off, the gusts in this particular storm have been especially violent.

As a few members have asked, there's been no Load Management Scheme (LMS) curtailment of the site today.

So wind speed wasn't the issue at Kirk Hill; it was turbulence. It would be interesting to see how other wind farms coped.

But it looks from the Ripple statement like Kirk Hill did shut down because of the strength of the gusts. 

3pm - All the turbines are currently at 0MW output; they have automatically gone to this output to protect themselves due to vibrations resulting from the intensity of some of the gusts. Although average wind speeds have been below the threshold above which they would turn off, the gusts in this particular storm have been especially violent.

I think we may be arguing semantics, here, if you are saying wind speed wasn’t the issue when Ripple have said they have automatically gone to this [0MW] output to protect themselves due to vibrations resulting from the intensity of some of the gusts.

Possibly it was offshore turbines affected most. Wind speeds tend to be higher over sea than land.

There were some very strong gusts recorded in southern Scotland and I believe 114mph was recorded in Ireland so possibly there were some much higher out at sea. 

https://www.ayradvertiser.com/news/national/24883356.winds-top-100mph-storm-eowyn-causes-travel-disruption-power-cuts/

Edit: I came across this also.

There was no visible grid curtailment at 9.30 a.m., “though starting to see some self-curtailment (output reduction) of wind farms due to the very high wind speeds,” said Robin Hawkes, who does data visualisation at Octopus Energy, in a Linkedin post.  

Reduced Power

Orsted’s Walney Wind Farm on Eaglesham Moor is one of the wind turbines now operating at reduced power. When the wind speed averages over 25 meters per second (about 56 miles per hour) for more than a 10-minute period, the turbines will automatically soft stop, make themselves safe, and wait until the wind speed drops to below 25 meters per second, where they will automatically restart in a safe manner, Orsted explained in a mailed statement.

Actual wind generation is lower than forecast. While wind generation was forecast to peak at 18,255 megawatts at 4 a.m. this morning, the actual result was only 15,035 megawatts at this time, according to data from Elexon. 

https://financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/uk-wind-farm-shutdowns-amid-storm-prompt-higher-power-prices

edit 2: no wind storm discussion would be complete without a photo of a collapsed wind turbine.😀

https://afloat.ie/marine-environment/weather/item/66114-storm-eowyn-breaks-wind-records-causes-severe-damage

JKenH

QrizB said:

JKenH said:

I wondered why wind generation wasn’t ever over 20 GW yesterday.

I would be nice to source and substantiate that statement. As far as I can tell, the Met Office haven't recorded any gusts (let alone sustained) above 100mph and most turbines are happy with sustained speeds in excess of 50mph, so "double" seems rather an exaggeration?

Here's what the Ripple team had to say about Kirk Hill:

Output dropped a bit this morning; the Kirk Hill turbines reach maximum power at about 14 metres per second or 30mph, rotating at about 17rpm. However output starts to drop slightly as the blades pitch to protect the turbines in very high winds, and this is starting to happen with some of the turbines today, which is why output has reduced from max power. They only cut out when winds average 34 metres per second (75mph) over a 10-minute period - they can withstand gusts more intense than this whilst still operating. The highest gust recorded this morning was 100mph.

3pm - All the turbines are currently at 0MW output; they have automatically gone to this output to protect themselves due to vibrations resulting from the intensity of some of the gusts. Although average wind speeds have been below the threshold above which they would turn off, the gusts in this particular storm have been especially violent.

As a few members have asked, there's been no Load Management Scheme (LMS) curtailment of the site today.

So wind speed wasn't the issue at Kirk Hill; it was turbulence. It would be interesting to see how other wind farms coped.

Just for completeness, I did look at the Ripple statement which also included the following:

The safety systems in the turbine mean that a few instances of the vibration warning can be remotely reset, but after this a manual reset is required at the turbine after a brief inspection. The RES and Enercon control rooms are liaising to determine if this is necessary, but a visit may need to wait until after winds have dropped to a safe level for a team to attend. The Enercon teams will also likely have a number of sites to attend to in the area. 

Occasionally you may see a negative power output on your dashboards, this negative output is displayed when the site is not generating and the turbines and substation are instead having to import small volumes of power for control systems, heating etc.

It does seem as though a few turbines might have been knocked out temporarily and could not be reset until it was safe to do so.