The Alternative Green Energy Thread

JKenH

michaels said:

If you read the government paper on net zero by 2030 in electricity generation you will see that it still involves 5% (annual total) of generation via gas with that being more than offset by exports of wind and solar energy - hence the word net.  There seems to be a major lack of understanding on this point amongst those who go on about 'what will we do when the sun is not shining and the wind is not blowing'?

But how do you achieve that in practice? That 5% will be made up of just a few days like these ‘when the sun isn’t shining and the wind isn’t blowing’ and the sun isn’t shining. We will still need the same gas capacity we have now or even more to cope with the extra demand from EV charging and heat pumps ‘when the sun isn’t shining and the wind isn’t blowing.’ How is that paid for? The capital cost of the gas plants, instead of being spread over 50% of our generation will have to be spread over 5% so the cost per unit will increase disproportionately. Significant payments will have to be paid to keep the gas plants on standby. So, yes, Net Zero will be easy to achieve as long as we are prepared to pay through the nose for it. 

QrizB

JKenH said:

michaels said:

If you read the government paper on net zero by 2030 in electricity generation you will see that it still involves 5% (annual total) of generation via gas with that being more than offset by exports of wind and solar energy - hence the word net.  There seems to be a major lack of understanding on this point amongst those who go on about 'what will we do when the sun is not shining and the wind is not blowing'?

But how do you achieve that in practice?

There's an 84-page NESO report on the subject here:

https://www.neso.energy/document/346651/download

Figure 20 shows the forecast cost of electricity in 2030 under three potential situations. The "counterfactual" is a do-nothing option, the New Dispatch is the base case and the Flex is a greener option. you'll see the extra cost of New Dispatch is in the region of £8 per MWh, 0.8p/kWh. MOE reduces that to £3 per MWh.

JKenH

QrizB said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

If you read the government paper on net zero by 2030 in electricity generation you will see that it still involves 5% (annual total) of generation via gas with that being more than offset by exports of wind and solar energy - hence the word net.  There seems to be a major lack of understanding on this point amongst those who go on about 'what will we do when the sun is not shining and the wind is not blowing'?

But how do you achieve that in practice?

There's an 84-page NESO report on the subject here:

https://www.neso.energy/document/346651/download

Figure 20 shows the forecast cost of electricity in 2030 under three potential situations. The "counterfactual" is a do-nothing option, the New Dispatch is the base case and the Flex is a greener option. you'll see the extra cost of New Dispatch is in the region of £8 per MWh, 0.8p/kWh. MOE reduces that to £3 per MWh.

It will be interesting to see how that works out in practice.

michaels

QrizB said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

If you read the government paper on net zero by 2030 in electricity generation you will see that it still involves 5% (annual total) of generation via gas with that being more than offset by exports of wind and solar energy - hence the word net.  There seems to be a major lack of understanding on this point amongst those who go on about 'what will we do when the sun is not shining and the wind is not blowing'?

But how do you achieve that in practice?

There's an 84-page NESO report on the subject here:

https://www.neso.energy/document/346651/download

Figure 20 shows the forecast cost of electricity in 2030 under three potential situations. The "counterfactual" is a do-nothing option, the New Dispatch is the base case and the Flex is a greener option. you'll see the extra cost of New Dispatch is in the region of £8 per MWh, 0.8p/kWh. MOE reduces that to £3 per MWh.

Hmm - part of the reason that it doesn't cost much more is the reduction in carbon tax which is sort of an accounting entry as it presumably means more tax will have to be raised elsewhere....

I am also worried about the price/cost they have used for import and export as I suspect we will be importing when supply is tight and exporting when there is potentially already surplus.

I am guessing tht the much bigger fall in carbon than fuel is that a lot of the remaining fuel is biomass (and nuclear fuel?)

JKenH

Telegraph article reporting a fall off in participation in ‘saving sessions’. I took part in all last year’s saving sessions but decided this year it wasn’t worth the effort.

Net zero target at risk as households drop out of electricity rationing scheme

Participation plunges after payments on offer to those avoiding peak energy hours fall dramatically

In a plan published on Friday, the Government says this will be achieved by using “smart” devices to shift demand from electric car chargers, heat pumps and other appliances such as fridges and washing machines outside of peak hours.

But despite the policy implying that many millions of consumers will need to sign up in the coming years, participation in the country’s flagship flexibility scheme has gone into reverse – having more than halved this winter, figures provided to The Telegraph show.

At this time last year, more than 2m consumers had signed up to the so-called demand flexibility service.

But today the figure stands at about 750,000, a drop of about 62pc, according to the National Energy System Operator (Neso), which manages Britain’s power grid.

It follows a decision to slash the payments offered to customers by as much as 90pc.

Energy industry insiders said the decision had dented the attractiveness of the scheme, leading to a lacklustre take-up from most suppliers.

Octopus Energy, Britain’s biggest electricity supplier with around 6.8m customers, accounts for 740,000 or about 99pc of sign-ups this year – a total almost entirely made up of households rather than businesses. That was also down from around one million the company signed up last year.

Kieron Stopforth, of Octopus Energy, warned that the rewards offered to consumers had fallen off “quite a steep cliff” this winter.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/12/15/net-zero-target-threatened-electricity-rationing-scheme/

EricMears

JKenH said:

Telegraph article reporting a fall off in participation in ‘saving sessions’. I took part in all last year’s saving sessions but decided this year it wasn’t worth the effort.

Net zero target at risk as households drop out of electricity rationing scheme

Participation plunges after payments on offer to those avoiding peak energy hours fall dramatically

In a plan published on Friday, the Government says this will be achieved by using “smart” devices to shift demand from electric car chargers, heat pumps and other appliances such as fridges and washing machines outside of peak hours.

But despite the policy implying that many millions of consumers will need to sign up in the coming years, participation in the country’s flagship flexibility scheme has gone into reverse – having more than halved this winter, figures provided to The Telegraph show.

At this time last year, more than 2m consumers had signed up to the so-called demand flexibility service.

But today the figure stands at about 750,000, a drop of about 62pc, according to the National Energy System Operator (Neso), which manages Britain’s power grid.

It follows a decision to slash the payments offered to customers by as much as 90pc.

Energy industry insiders said the decision had dented the attractiveness of the scheme, leading to a lacklustre take-up from most suppliers.

Octopus Energy, Britain’s biggest electricity supplier with around 6.8m customers, accounts for 740,000 or about 99pc of sign-ups this year – a total almost entirely made up of households rather than businesses. That was also down from around one million the company signed up last year.

Kieron Stopforth, of Octopus Energy, warned that the rewards offered to consumers had fallen off “quite a steep cliff” this winter.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/12/15/net-zero-target-threatened-electricity-rationing-scheme/

I too decided it wasn't worth the effort - though in my case it wasn't just the lack of financial incentive as I now have enough battery capacity to make it almost never necessary to import anything at peak rates so there isn't a lot of scope to reduce.

Also,  I'm on deemed export so have never bothered to get an export MPAN and wouldn't get paid if I was to force export.  Proposed 'rewards' aren't enough to justify changing policy.

QrizB

EricMears said:

JKenH said:

Telegraph article reporting a fall off in participation in ‘saving sessions’. I took part in all last year’s saving sessions but decided this year it wasn’t worth the effort.

Also,  I'm on deemed export so have never bothered to get an export MPAN and wouldn't get paid if I was to force export.  Proposed 'rewards' aren't enough to justify changing policy.

I've signed up with Octopus, but agree that the reduction in potential "rewards" for energy saved - fron ~£2/kWh to ~60p/kWh - will be demotivating some people.

michaels

QrizB said:

EricMears said:

JKenH said:

Telegraph article reporting a fall off in participation in ‘saving sessions’. I took part in all last year’s saving sessions but decided this year it wasn’t worth the effort.

Also,  I'm on deemed export so have never bothered to get an export MPAN and wouldn't get paid if I was to force export.  Proposed 'rewards' aren't enough to justify changing policy.

I've signed up with Octopus, but agree that the reduction in potential "rewards" for energy saved - fron ~£2/kWh to ~60p/kWh - will be demotivating some people.

Apparently Octopus is 740k out of 750k total sign ups - none of the other big suppliers seems to have bothered and the non-customer offerings all say they can't even ell you how much you will get, it may just be 'prizes' - and no mention of export either.  My understanding is it is because supply is les tight this year so there is no real value in 'negawatts', hence the returns are not really big enough to encourage companies or consumers to take part.

Reed_Richards

I'm with Eon Next.  Unlike in previous years, they haven't approached me to sign-up.  is the problem perhaps a lack of participation by some energy companies this year?  

thevilla

Reed_Richards said:

I'm with Eon Next.  Unlike in previous years, they haven't approached me to sign-up.  is the problem perhaps a lack of participation by some energy companies this year?  

According to the octopus email on the subject even they were late to participate as they were holding out for a better deal.

"We'd been holding out for better value"