Was: Windscreen PCN, Now: IAS appeal win for lease car

foxrocks

The driver of my leased vehicle recently visited a friend and used one of their parking tickets for the car park at their block of flats. They arrived at night, parked in a visitor bay, and filled out the ticket. The friend said it was valid for 24hrs, but the following morning there was a ticket stuck on the windscreen. Upon checking, it turns out the ticket was only valid till midnight the previous day. :embarasse

I've had a look at the 'Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd' website and they have photos, including ones showing the expired ticket on the dashboard.

Last year I successfully appealed a PCN primarily on the basis that the car was leased:

"As the hirer of the
vehicle, I wish to refute these charges and have this PCN cancelled on the following grounds:
1. The Operator failed to deliver a Notice to Hirer that was fully compliant with the requirements of
Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ('POFA')
In order to rely upon POFA to claim unpaid parking charges from a vehicle's hirer, an operator must
deliver a Notice to Hirer in full compliance with POFA's strict requirements. In this instance, the
Operator's Notice to Hirer did not comply.
The relevant provisions concerning hire vehicles are set out in Paragraphs 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 of
POFA with the conditions that the Creditor must meet in order to be able to hold the hirer liable for the
charge being set out in Paragraph 14.
Paragraph 14 (2) (a) specifies that in addition to delivering a Notice to Hirer within the relevant period,
the Creditor must also provide the Hirer with a copy of the documents mentioned in Paragraph 13(2)
(i.e. (a) a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time
the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement; (b) a copy of the hire agreement; and
(c) a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement), together with a copy
of the Notice to Keeper.
The Operator did not provide me with copies of any of these documents, (a), (b) or (c)"

There was more on the appeal, as per usual the recommendations for POPLA appeals on this forum, but that was the main thing that got me off, as from what I read, failing to comply in this way was basically a guaranteed win on appeal.

Am I likely to be able to get out of this one in the same way? Or is the fact that there was a ticket on the dash likely to count against me, in terms of pleading ignorance of the charges? (Which, to be fair, the driver was unaware of specifially, given that they arrived at night in an unlit car park with no chance of seeing the signage).

Nothing has been received in the post yet - it's just the windscreen ticket, which according to the Newbies thread I need to appeal fairly quickly.

Thanks!

Fruitcake

You can only use the same reasons if this was also a hire/lease car AND the driver's identity isn't know.

If you wish to use the same defence then you need first to edit your post to remove information about who did what. Only ever refer to The Driver and The Keeper or Lessee/Hirer, who are different people.

Do this before you do anything else.

PCM(UK) are IPC members so there will be no PoPLA stage.

foxrocks

Yes good point, have edited accordingly. Thank you!

I can confirm the car is leased and there are multiple people insured to drive the car.

Fruitcake

Make sure the hire/lease company know you are dealing with this and that they must not pay the charge on your behalf.

Then, send the edna basher hirer/lessee appeal letter from post 1 of the NEWBIES.

Complain to the landowner.

Complain to your MP or whoever is standing at the next election. Tell them your vote and that of your family members will depend on what they do about this unregulated scam in general and this charge in particular.

The_Deep

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Have you read this?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/11/residential-parking.html

What does your friend's lease/AST say about parking? Does it mention permits? Does it mention paying a parking parasite silly money if you do nor display one. If it is silent on the matter them the lease/AST has primacy and, if the are daft enough to take this to court they may get a bloody nose, read this

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/324523-ukpc-liable-for-trespass-success/

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP, it can cause the scammer extra costs and work.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.[/FONT]l[/FONT]

foxrocks

The_Deep wrote: »

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Have you read this?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/11/residential-parking.html

What does your friend's lease/AST say about parking? Does it mention permits? Does it mention paying a parking parasite silly money if you do nor display one. If it is silent on the matter them the lease/AST has primacy and, if the are daft enough to take this to court they may get a bloody nose, read this

Comments from the tenant:

"It's a relatively new thing they brought in because people kept parking out the back and in front of the garages, so the building management company had a meeting with all the tenants and landlords and I believe it was agreed by a vote (I couldn't attend) that they would bring in this permit thing. I have to buy permits from those PCM (UK) people"

So it was brought in to stop random people using the building's car park, but to the surprise of absolutely nobody, they are now dishing out PCNs to people who are clearly a legitimate visitor but whose permit expired a few hours ago

foxrocks

Fruitcake wrote: »

Make sure the hire/lease company know you are dealing with this and that they must not pay the charge on your behalf.

Then, send the edna basher hirer/lessee appeal letter from post 1 of the NEWBIES.

Complain to the landowner.

Complain to your MP or whoever is standing at the next election. Tell them your vote and that of your family members will depend on what they do about this unregulated scam in general and this charge in particular.

Thank you for the advice.

So because they're IPC members, I don't need to worry about sending an initial complaint, then putting everything separately in a POPLA appeal like I did last time? I just put all the appeal info in my initial letter?

Fruitcake

There is no fair or worthwhile second stage appeal with IPC members. It is believed they guarantee their members an 80% rejection rate or more.

The only viable stages available to you are, appeal as hirer/lessee, and see if they take you to court if it is rejected.
Use the edna basher template plus anything useful such as failure to comply with specific parts off the PoFA paras 13 and 14 I think.

The driver sits on their hands in the corner and says and does nothing.

foxrocks

Fruitcake wrote: »

There is no fair or worthwhile second stage appeal with IPC members. It is believed they guarantee their members an 80% rejection rate or more.

The only viable stages available to you are, appeal as hirer/lessee, and see if they take you to court if it is rejected.
Use the edna basher template plus anything useful such as failure to comply with specific parts off the PoFA paras 13 and 14 I think.

The driver sits on their hands in the corner and says and does nothing.

Sorry to be a pain, but do you have a link to Edna's post that you're referring to?

All I can see in the Newbies post is a link to one of their posts with a template for a company car, where the letter is being sent from a fleet manager.

Redx

Should be 3 links in there , bottom of post #1 , above the link you mentioned

foxrocks

Thanks. I did look at those although a couple of them seemed to be after a POPLA code, which won't be relevant to me.

This one is more applicable, although the poster here seems to be the registered keeper of the vehicle, whereas in my case, the lease company is the registered keeper:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/69767583#Comment_69767583