Builders contract

Doozergirl

symbiosis01 wrote: »

Not a friend but a neighbour (2 doors up) so I would hope he would want to do a good job and not take the u know what as he's going to be seeing us everyday....but you never know!

These are the ones that go wrong the most. It's not just about what he does, it's about your expectation of what he does.

Have you seen his work? I'm a little worried that he wants to work on a day rate because day rate is really the domain of the subcontractor, not the project manager.

Part of project managing is about ensuring the security of the budget. If you're doing it yourself on a day rate, there's a mix of reluctance to take responsibility for the budget, but also an inexperience of knowing how much things should cost.

symbiosis01

Used him on a couple of very small jobs (bit of fencing and a repair to a summerhouse) but its hard to see loft carpentry as its always covered up I guess.

He has converted his loft and it looks fine from the outside but I guess that means nothing.

We have separate quotes for all the all the other trades so there shouldnt be too much budget responsibility from his side, just organising them to be here when needed

Doozergirl

symbiosis01 wrote: »

Used him on a couple of very small jobs (bit of fencing and a repair to a summerhouse) but its hard to see loft carpentry as its always covered up I guess.

He has converted his loft and it looks fine from the outside but I guess that means nothing.

We have separate quotes for all the all the other trades so there shouldnt be too much budget responsibility from his side, just organising them to be here when needed

You're underestimating what project management involves. Talking to those people involves his time/ your money. Organising everyone to work together during a working day involves your money. Tackling issues that arise on site and rectifying them or getting them rectified involves your money. If he isn't project managing, you are.

Have you been INSIDE his loft conversion? It's not like it's very far away for you to be doing proper due diligence on this person. How many other loft conversions has he managed?

My carpenters wouldn't be touching fences. They do structural work and skilled finishing. An experienced project manager that is also a carpenter certainly wouldn't be touching fences and wouldn't be working for £150 a day either.

symbiosis01

Thanks and no I haven't been inside. He said as its his kids rooms he's reluctant as they are always a mess......

I should be asking for references from other attic conversion jobs you think

Doozergirl

I don't think, I know.

If the sheer extent of your research on someone who is about to project manage a major structural build on your house is a bit of fencing, some work to a summerhouse and a £150 day rate, then you're in trouble.

phill99

No. Just No. No. No. No. No. No again.


Firstly, there are three rules to abide by in life
1) Never lend money you can't afford to lose
2) Never let a house to someone you won't evict and
3) Never employ someone you aren't willing to sack.


You must have someone at arms length. A neighbour isn't at arms length and the situation will be awkward if things go pear shaped.


If he is offering a day rate to project manage the job, then he is no more a project manager than I am the Chief Rabbi.


In terms of the 'contract' you need a contract that covers the whole project. That means that there is one contract to cover all trades - brickies, plasterers, carpenters etc. This means that there will be a lead contractor and all other trades sub-contract to him. This means that one person has overall responsibility for all materials, all trades, availability of labour, work programmes, quality control, resolution of disputes etc. What he is effectively doing by getting you to pay the other trades directly is to set up a number of direct contracts. This really is a recipe for disaster as when there is a problem, each trade will simply blame another trade.


Day rates are not an effective way to employ someone. He will simply string the job out and you will be £1250 a week worse off for each week that the job overruns. You must get a fixed price with a clear specification.


Do not go down this route as you will lose a lot of money and end up pulling your hair out.

phill99

And listen to Doozergirl. She knows what she is talking about.

symbiosis01

Ok fair enough a point and I agree but isnt the point of having building controls inspections to ensure that the structural work has been done correctly and to plan?

Doozergirl

symbiosis01 wrote: »

Ok fair enough a point and I agree but isnt the point of having building controls inspections to ensure that the structural work has been done correctly and to plan?

In a word. No.

They come a handful of times a loft conversion, if that. They want to see the steels and that the insulation exists, then they'll have a look at the stairs, fire doors and smoke alarms. They'll check the right glass is in the windows. And that's about it. They'll expect you to provide the electrical certificate and they'll be on site for about 15 minutes, if that. There's a lot more work than just structural, there's an overall attention to detail and care for a project.

You cannot rely on Building Control to do all of your quality control. Besides, if it's wrong, it's already gone wrong hasn't it. And whose problem is that?

As Phill says, you've created multiple different contracts and you've purchased all of the materials, so if anything gets ruined and needs buying again, you're buying it.

This guy just turns up for £150 a day he's responsible for nothing.

I'm afraid you're deeply naive about this. You are the project manager, main contractor and client. Fine if that's what you're expecting and are going to be on site, but otherwise you seriously need to slow down here and start following some sort of process of due diligence.

Doozergirl

phill99 wrote: »

And listen to Doozergirl. She knows what she is talking about.

I think you did better than I did there. I have a habit of waffling sometimes.