Builders contract

symbiosis01

Hi all

Looking at getting my loft converted, the builder we have in mind is a neighbour and he's a carpenter and general builder.

So far he's just given us a day rate for him and a labourer and told us to allow 8 weeks to complete (he will project manage the job too).

I'm a bit worried that this is all a bit loose and liable to run over, any advice please?

Doozergirl

It's loose and it's liable to run over!

Not sure what else you want us to say.

You might save money over having someone more organised doing it, but then you very well might not.

Having a friend do it is often a recipe for disaster.

Letting that friend do the whole thing on a day rate is definitely a recipe for disaster.

There must be other qualified trades involved. What's happening with materials? Do you have drawings, specifications drawn up? What about professional fees? Building Control? Structural Engineer?

Clive_Woody

I would want a much more detailed plan/scope of work and an agreed quotation for said work and payment terms all up front.

I would not be happy with a day rate and no kind of written agreement.

Kiran

Yes, and by the look of your posts title you already know the answer. Day rate is an easy way to double or triple your costs plus you have no records of what has been agreed. The work you are going to be doing is multiple thousands of pounds, it would be foolish not to protect yourself

symbiosis01

Thanks - in answer to some of the questions:

Materials - He will order and we will be paying for them on a trade account we set up with our local builders merchants

Drawings - Yes we have full architect plans, structural plans and the work will be under building regs control

Sub trades - we have separate quotes from a roofer, electrician, plumber and will pay them directly ourselves.

I guess we need to get something in writing if we want to use him, I was thinking:
1) Confirmed day rate
2) Start date and agreed end date
3 working hours per day
4)Responsibilities (structural work, carpentry works & project management)
5) What could cause delays and how will he overcome them
6) How will he clear up and when
7) When we will make payments for his work
8) What will he do if we are unhappy in any aspect of his work

I will also make sure he has public liability insurance. Anything else you would suggest I get in writing please?

Also, he's quoted £150 a day for him and £100 for a labourer - how dos that sound?

What payment terms would you suggest?

Thanks all

Clive_Woody

I would agree a price for the job as it sounds like you have detailed plans so he should be able to quote based on this. I really would avoid a day rate and the complications around clock watching and hours worked.

dunroving

I think telling you a day rate is handy, because it allows one sort of comparison to other quotes. However, you need to know how much the job will cost at the end, what is included, etc.

For example, plasterer I used last year said he charges £350/day for him and his dad (also helping with plastering), that the job would take 2 days (so, £700), plus materials. He provided an estimate for materials.

As part of the contract I would remove all waste, and I would ensure there was a gap of 25cm either side of the chasing that he was making good. (The contract was not a formally written contract, but the conditions were in writing via text messages).

ETA: These jobs sometimes contain unknowns (e.g., will the plaster be in good condition after the wallpaper is removed?) It's a good idea to discuss potential hitches and/or wiggle room if there are any unexpected challenges during the build.

Jackmydad

"Day rates" are OK for a couple of days work.
But I'd want to know the guy first.
"Couple of days work" can drag out into a couple of weeks!

Certainly anything bigger than that get a quote.

Doozergirl

Okay, so he's essentially one subbie amongst many.

£150 isn't a lot for someone who is working and project managing. Project managing takes time by itself in organisation and meetings and it holds value. It also means that any surprises involving any trade have to be dealt with by him - it's hard then to quantify exactly how long it will take, especially if he's trying to do a trade himself.

A day rate specifically means a day rate, regardless of how long it takes.

A price is a price.

You can choose to tie him down to a price, but you can't equate it to a day rate because you're essentially making an agreement that if it goes over he sucks it up, if it comes under you mitigated your risk by giving it to him.

I feel that if this is a friend then it's imperative you agree a price for it if you are not prepared to trust him entirely, be laid back and appreciate that it costs what it costs.

symbiosis01

Doozergirl wrote: »

I feel that if this is a friend then it's imperative you agree a price for it if you are not prepared to trust him entirely, be laid back and appreciate that it costs what it costs.

Not a friend but a neighbour (2 doors up) so I would hope he would want to do a good job and not take the u know what as he's going to be seeing us everyday....but you never know!

dunroving

symbiosis01 wrote: »

Not a friend but a neighbour (2 doors up) so I would hope he would want to do a good job and not take the u know what as he's going to be seeing us everyday....but you never know!

^^^ this. Better to get specifics.