Multiple offences

justaroaduser

Dear Helpful MSE forum members.

I have an unfortunate situation and a question about repeated "infringements of contract":

A relative of mine who is of retirement age has been served a NtK by Parking Eye. The parking incident in question was in a free car park, no payment is required if you successfully enter your registration details on the console in the health centre. The driver of the car failed to do this, or indeed to attempt to do this.

The really difficult thing is that the (same) car was parked in this same car park every day of the week, Monday - Friday. Needless to say that the driver of the car was unaware of the "contract" they had allegedly entered into. If they had known after day 1, they would not have done the same thing on days 2-5. Each threatening (and upset stirring) invoice from Parking Eye demands the usual £100 or £60 if paid within 14 days. That mounts up to £300-£500 and is causing a high degree of stress and distress.

The notices are automatically generated and seem to comply with all the appropriate regulations, no NtD was issued on the car windscreen of the car at the time, it has all been done through ANPR. If the notice was given more clearly and quickly, the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th "infringements of contract" would certainly not have occurred!

My question is coming...
I suspect that the signage in the carpark is reasonably good and that PE think it constitutes the generation of a contract. Since the driver of the car did not enter the health centre (to which the car park is attached) and did not use the health centre - but rather the Hospital next door, it seems clear to me that if taken to appeals with POPLA they may well lose the appeal, as they did actually breach the contract which PE are trying to claim existed.

I want to know if it is possible, through POPLA or even PE's own appeals procedure, to get the 2-5th fake PCN's cancelled, and allow the driver or keeper to pay the early rate of £60 and move on.

The action I have currently taken is:

(1) to try to locate the right person at the health centre to make a complaint about the bombardment of threatening letters, and request the cancelling of the threatening invoices.

(2) to post this question here, as I could not find any information about unfortunate repeated incidents like this one.

I am happy to show you pictures of the NtK which have been sent, they are the standard PE letters, with photos. The only thing interesting to note is that they all occurred late at night when light is poor, and the photos of the car (numberplate is visible and correct) are all very dark indeed.
I haven't been to the car park myself yet to see what the signage is like, I could do this if you thought it was necessary, but it isn't a close drive from home and would require a bit of a journey.

Many thanks for your help.
Justaroaduser

The_Deep

Some reading before you proceed

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5972164/parking-eye-signs-oxford-road-reading

Have they complied with the NHS stuff?

Their signs are unfit for purpose imo and they have a mountain to climb against a well argued defence. Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams. Consider complaining to your MP.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted


Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies

fisherjim

You seem to be making a lot of assumption here which you should not be doing only deal on facts:

"The notices are automatically generated and seem to comply with all the appropriate regulations".

As the private parking industry is not "regulated" that's not quite right.


"If the notice was given more clearly and quickly, the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th "infringements of contract" would certainly not have occurred!"


With ANPR the NTK's should arrive within 14 days or they don't comply with the POFA and the PPC can only chase the driver.


"I want to know if it is possible, through POPLA or even PE's own appeals procedure, to get the 2-5th fake PCN's cancelled, and allow the driver or keeper to pay the early rate of £60 and move on".

Not a chance, that's not in POPLA's remit, and PE are rubbing their greedy scamming hands at the prospect of all that cash, why on earth do you think cold hearted scammers will give away their chance to make such a scoop!
You never discuss the driver anyway.



"The only thing interesting to note is that they all occurred late at night when light is poor, and the photos of the car (numberplate is visible and correct) are all very dark indeed".


Yep standard ANPR technology nothing out of the ordinary.


"I haven't been to the car park myself yet to see what the signage is like, I could do this if you thought it was necessary, but it isn't a close drive from home and would require a bit of a journey".

With multiple tickets like this a trip to check and photograph the signage as TD says would be a good idea, it would be one of the POPLA appeal points, and going back to your illumination point if the signage cannot be seen in the dark that is worth appealing to POPLA.

Note: POPLA won't take any notice of any mitigation or any what happened on the day.

Umkomaas

The notices are automatically generated and seem to comply with all the appropriate regulations,

Let's check that out before assumptions take this possibly in a wrong direction.

Ticket 1

Date of parking event

Date of Issue shown on the NtK

Ticket 2

As above .....

.... and the same for each ticket.

Does the reverse page of each Notice to Keeper (NtK) contain a paragraph about the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, which commences 'You are notified under paragraph 9(2)(b) of Schedule 4 ..... '. And a further paragraph which commences 'You are warned that if, after 29 days from the date given ....'?

In all likelihood PE will have got these right (they're more efficient than most), but there have been previous blips ......

Le_Kirk

The only thing interesting to note is that they all occurred late at night

Was the health centre open "late at night" and were or are there signs saying "no parking outside of normal working hours" or similar? How is anybody supposed to access a logging in device if/when the centre is closed?

Coupon-mad

Was the driver a patient of that health centre?

Or just blagging what they assumed was free parking like a numpty, when I bet they could have parked on street for free in the locality, after permit hours?!

The_Deep

If you bilk in a private car park controlled by a scammer you can expect hassle, the courts are not on your side here.

justaroaduser

Thank you very much guys, I really appreciate your time and can see that all of you who responded know a great deal and have helped many many people in the past.

Thanks Deep

For the NHS link, that will be very helpful in the letter to the NHS trust, they obviously have contracted-out their car parking to parking eye.
These grabbed my attention

• NHS organisations are responsible for the actions of private contractors who run car parks on their behalf.
• NHS organisations should act against rogue contractors in line with the relevant codes of practice where applicable.
• Contracts should not be let on any basis that incentiveises additional charges, eg ‘income from parking charge notices only’.

I think that means PE *shouldn't* be allowed to be paid on a basis which means more income from more tickets. My guess is that they are, of course no evidence, but that seems to be their MO. I saw a freedom of information request here
link-3ws--whatdotheyknow.com/request/car_park_contract
which was from an NHS trust and blacked out the financial bits of the agreement.

To answer your questions

1) have they complied with the NHS stuff, yes I believe so - it seems to be the NHS who have not complied or at least to whom it is worth making appeals - they retain all the responsibility for the actions of PE

2) We are going to visit the site today and will photograph the signs, we are going at the same time of day (poor light levels)

3) Thanks for being frank with your final comment. I realise that their contract was broken, but the more I have read the more I find it infuriating that they should act in such a threatening way and maintain that a contract was established here. The repeated 'offence' itself shows that there was no agreement to any contract on the part of the driver.

Fisherjim

The letters are all of the exact same template, hence why I said 'automatically generated'
and the information in them almost exactly corresponds with what is required by the PoFA in a notice to keeper, as found here:
link-3ws--legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

Thanks for setting expectations helpfully about the prospect of common sense and the cancelling of tickets 2-5.

We're off to the car park today to see what we find, and examine the signage.

Umkommas

Dates of parking events
September this year

• Ticket 1 - Event Monday, Issued +3 days after, times ~7pm till 8pm
• Ticket 2 - Event Tuesday, Issued +3 days after, times ~7pm till 8pm
• Ticket 3 - Event Wednesday, Issued +3 days after, times ~7pm till 8pm
• Ticket 4 and 5 expected in the post

YES the paragraphs beginning
'You are notified under paragraph 9(2)(b) of Schedule 4 ..... '.
And 'You are warned that if, after 29 days from the date given' are both present

Le_Kirk,

Yes, the Health centre remains open till 10 so was open and it would have been easy to use the console if the driver knew to do so. It's also worth saying, as before mentioned, that the driver was visiting someone in the hospital adjacent and did not go into the health centre.

Coupon-mad

Yes sadly you're right, they weren't using the health centre but visiting a dying friend (now passed away) in the hospital next door. They are all on one site and the car parks are intended to be separated. I will know more about the signage at the end of today.

justaroaduser

Here are the signs

hxxs://imgur.com/gallery/WgOAIuH

NeilCr

I think I would go into the health centre with your relative and explain the situation to them. Friend dying/hospital next door/confused about parking and see if they will help with cancellation. For me, complaining straight away is a bit off as the driver wasn't using the health centre

They don't happen to be a patient of the health centre do they?

I reckon the console is a red herring. That will be there for users of the health centre - not for anyone who just wants to use the car park

justaroaduser

I did that today, all the people I was able to speak to (it was after 5 pm) have had enough of the endless stream of people coming in wanting to talk about parking tickets, they have a blanket “we don’t talk about those at all” policy.

One lady on a different reception was very happy to speak to me, and said that a good number of the staff are having problems – but the health centre are able to get them rescinded by issuing a letter.

For what it’s worth there were no consoles at all – despite the signs and notices inside saying that there were – the receptionist had an iPad behind the desk and she herself entered your registration details when you dictate them to her after queueing up.