VW Group keyless security?

unholyangel

DUTR wrote: »

BREXIT, it has a lot to answer for.
As you have mentioned the figure have varied which means the problem has always been there in some guise or another.

While the problem may always have been there, I think the point is that previously, "security" features were designed as a deterrent - not as a convenience for users as a selling point. Usually, if something is more convenient for you then its going to be more convenient to the crooks also. And its not just cars that have done this.


Microsoft for example - used to have separate accounts with separate passwords for windows, hotmail/outlook, messenger, xbox etc. Then some "genius" decided it was more convenient for users to have one account and one password. So if ones compromised, they're all compromised.

Theres a layer of security in modems that can be bypassed by WPS again added to make it more convenient for the user but completely undermines/compromises the layers of security there to stop unauthorised access.

You may never be able to stop someone determined enough, but you sure as s*** should make them work for it!

DUTR

unholyangel wrote: »

While the problem may always have been there, I think the point is that previously, "security" features were designed as a deterrent - not as a convenience for users as a selling point. Usually, if something is more convenient for you then its going to be more convenient to the crooks also. And its not just cars that have done this.


Microsoft for example - used to have separate accounts with separate passwords for windows, hotmail/outlook, messenger, xbox etc. Then some "genius" decided it was more convenient for users to have one account and one password. So if ones compromised, they're all compromised.

Theres a layer of security in modems that can be bypassed by WPS again added to make it more convenient for the user but completely undermines/compromises the layers of security there to stop unauthorised access.

You may never be able to stop someone determined enough, but you sure as s*** should make them work for it!

I agree and for me, I favour the convenience , the theft risk is no greater, at least a large minority of vehicles are stolen to order and for parts, not just for the case they are steal-able, why are there so many car jackings or key from the hallway thefts if the thief can simple buy a device off the internet , press a few buttons and off they go?

JohnDorian

DUTR wrote: »

Most if not all modern cars are like that, hence keyless entry to the vehicle, and then the keyless start what I think some are trying to refer to, as mentioned many modern vulnerable cars are in effect keyless if they ca be started by the OBD port (often the ones with stop start system) in fact my MK5 Golf although it took a key to start , the operation was not the same as say a car 10 years it's senior.
A said cars aren't suddenly being stolen due to keyless entry keyless start systems, they have always been stolen by one method or another.

Saying you don't need to put a key into a door makes the car keyless entry is missing the point of this thread. From a thread on another forum I visit - a couple share a car. The husband drives his wife 20 miles to a train station, parks the car, walks with her to the platform and then waits until her train arrives. Goes back to car and can't get in. Turns out he forgot his keys. The whole journey was made as his wife had her keys in her bag. The only pre-requisite to gaining entry to the car is the proximity of the key to the car. There is no second step to gaining access or starting.

The theft of these vehicles is a completely different issue to the theft vehicles where on the start is truely keyless but entry requires a fob.

DUTR

JohnDorian wrote: »

Saying you don't need to put a key into a door makes the car keyless entry is missing the point of this thread. From a thread on another forum I visit - a couple share a car. The husband drives his wife 20 miles to a train station, parks the car, walks with her to the platform and then waits until her train arrives. Goes back to car and can't get in. Turns out he forgot his keys. The whole journey was made as his wife had her keys in her bag. The only pre-requisite to gaining entry to the car is the proximity of the key to the car. There is no second step to gaining access or starting.

The theft of these vehicles is a completely different issue to the theft vehicles where on the start is truely keyless but entry requires a fob.

Your example fails, as if you had real experience of the proximity keys then you would know you have to be very close to the vehicle to enter it, eg if I were at the passenger door with the key, the driver door could not open from the outside , likewise you need to be close to lock the vehicle. If the vehicle is I the boot in a bag say.... the car will not start.
Let me remind you cars get stolen because they are required for parts , little else and getting into a luddite frenzy isn't going to cure anything

JohnDorian

DUTR wrote: »

Your example fails, as if you had real experience of the proximity keys then you would know you have to be very close to the vehicle to enter it, eg if I were at the passenger door with the key, the driver door could not open from the outside , likewise you need to be close to lock the vehicle. If the vehicle is I the boot in a bag say.... the car will not start.
Let me remind you cars get stolen because they are required for parts , little else and getting into a luddite frenzy isn't going to cure anything

The driver's door soesn't need to be the first door that opens on a car. So not sure how you have come up with that as the wife had a key in her bag.

My last post on this thread as you are going around and around in circles and don't actually underdtand why the OP made this thread regarding VAG KEYLESS entry which has nothing to do with cars 10 years. The fact that you think the driver's door has to be the first to open shows your lack of understanding of the apllication given the wife had the keys in her bag and could have opened another of the 4 doors on the car. Anyway, this is boring and pointless because discussing something with someone telling me it has 'always been this way' is usually fruitless.

DUTR

JohnDorian wrote: »

The driver's door soesn't need to be the first door that opens on a car. So not sure how you have come up with that as the wife had a key in her bag.

My last post on this thread as you are going around and around in circles and don't actually underdtand why the OP made this thread regarding VAG KEYLESS entry which has nothing to do with cars 10 years. The fact that you think the driver's door has to be the first to open shows your lack of understanding of the apllication given the wife had the keys in her bag and could have opened another of the 4 doors on the car. Anyway, this is boring and pointless because discussing something with someone telling me it has 'always been this way' is usually fruitless.

I have a keyless (as you guys describe) vehicle , so it's pointless telling me what you think I lack to understand about the operation, only the operated door opens in close proximity of the key not all of them. As said your debate fails in that not all kessy cars get stolen and none kessy cars never get stolen, there are various ways of stealing a car .

JohnDorian

I'll be kicking myself for giving in, but I'll post again. So basically my example didn't fail. The wife opened her door and the car started. Well, ok then.......

But seriously, the point of this thread was not keyless entry vs keyless start. You have hijacked this thread and I think we should just leave this one alone so thay the OP can go back to discussing their concerns.

DUTR

JohnDorian wrote: »

I'll be kicking myself for giving in, but I'll post again. So basically my example didn't fail. The wife opened her door and the car started. Well, ok then.......

But seriously, the point of this thread was not keyless entry vs keyless start. You have hijacked this thread and I think we should just leave this one alone so thay the OP can go back to discussing their concerns.

There are various points to the thread I have not hijacked anything, if you want to leave it alone that is up to you, I didn't choose to debate with you, my point still stands, there is little point folk getting in a frenzy over kessy systems and their vulnerability, as all security systems have a vulnerability, the doubters can preach all they wish , those that are old enough may remember the same story lines about when remote entry key fobs were introduced , those even older may remember a car being started with any old key or even a wide enough screwdriver, yet every car was not stolen just because they can be.