Electric vehicles miles per KWh

Martyn1981

ed110220 wrote: »

The problem is when "just asking questions" is used as a means of making a baseless insinuation without evidence. It's an extremely well known trolling device.

"JAQ'ing off"

Like asking multiple questions:

GreatApe wrote: »

Why isn't this mentioned in pro intermittent discussions more often?

Wind farm outputs degrade very rapidly as the blades wear away and other faults and old age factors kick in

This report is a few years old have things gotten better?

This is quite a big negative it means you have to replace these quite often just to maintain output

Based on a 2012 report from the UK's most infamous anti-wind propaganda organisation.

Dave_Fowler

The Ioniq epa rating is 124 miles for its 28kWh battery. This equates to around 4.5 miles per kWh. The worst range I've had was 132 miles in the depths of winter and the best was 168 miles in summer. I've had the car for two and a half years. So the written ratings are not always too optimistic.

Dave F

GreatApe

EricMears wrote: »

I'm really not sure what sort of figure Nissan claim for the Leaf. But whatever it is(was), I doubt it would be any more helpful than IC engined vehicle manufacturers' claims to 'typical mpg'.

I'm afraid there's no such thing as typical fuel consumption figures (whatever type of fuel you're considering). One driver tearing around at 75+mph (not strictly legal but unlikely to be prosecuted) or even faster will obviously use more fuel than the driver of a similar car pottering around at 40mph or slower. A 'typical' motorist could exhibit both types of behaviour but his/her 'average' figures would depend on what proportion of the time is spent in each mode.

I'm reasonably happy with my average fuel consumption figures over the last 18months : 3.6 miles/ kWh works out to around 2.2 pence per mile but it can be even cheaper when you bear in mind that I can top up the battery for nothing in some places ! For comparison, my Volvo 2l D has averaged 42.5mpg over the last 11 years. At 130 pence/litre that gives around 14 pence per mile (and I've not found any garages giving fuel away ! ). Some of the differences in costs can be explained by taxation policies but they're unlikely to change anytime soon and I'm not prepared to run the Volvo on 'red gas oil'.

But it's not just cost differences that favour BEVs. Emissions on the road really are zero (apart from tyre particles which are exactly the same as IC engine cars). True, generation might put out some emissions - but there's a world of difference between fumes pothering out the back of a ICE car and those treated with state of the art devices before being discharged 400 feet above the ground. And of course much of the power used by an EV may come from pollution free sources.

My point which many of you are trying hard to ignore or sweep under the carpet is that the headline figure of EVs is the mileage they get with a full charge or a quoted miles per KWh

However this is imo willful propaganda and confusion

I am not disputing for instance the 4.1 miles per kWh the model 3 stats I agree with it but I am saying how many people are aware of the actual units they need to pay for taking charging losses and standing losses into account.

Why are you fighting this what's the harm in the EV manufacturers giving a simple calculator where a potential buyer can out in their details how many miles they will do per year their driving style and the charger they will use. From this the consumer can get a more information. Why do you want to hide information from the buyers?

Consumers will underestimate their electricity bills and also the indirect emmissions because they are being mislead by withholding information. A model 3 owner who does 7,000 miles a year will have to purchase about 50% more electricity and thus emmissions will be about 50% higher than their assumption of oh well I do 7,000 miles and Tesla and the regulator say the car is going to get 4.1 miles per kWh so I will only need 1,700 units a year...not you'll need about 50% more and the emmissions will be 50% more than that

JKenH

Interested to know whether you get much difference in mikes per kWh if you do vary your driving style. I was thinking that as long as you stay off the brakes it wouldn’t vary as much as an ICE. Obviously high speed equals high drag but assuming you keep to speed limits does the actual rate of acceleration have much bearing?

Edit: how does town driving compare with open road for economy?

1961Nick

EricMears wrote: »

I'm really not sure what sort of figure Nissan claim for the Leaf. But whatever it is(was), I doubt it would be any more helpful than IC engined vehicle manufacturers' claims to 'typical mpg'.

I'm afraid there's no such thing as typical fuel consumption figures (whatever type of fuel you're considering). One driver tearing around at 75+mph (not strictly legal but unlikely to be prosecuted) or even faster will obviously use more fuel than the driver of a similar car pottering around at 40mph or slower. A 'typical' motorist could exhibit both types of behaviour but his/her 'average' figures would depend on what proportion of the time is spent in each mode.

I'm reasonably happy with my average fuel consumption figures over the last 18months : 3.6 miles/ kWh works out to around 2.2 pence per mile but it can be even cheaper when you bear in mind that I can top up the battery for nothing in some places ! For comparison, my Volvo 2l D has averaged 42.5mpg over the last 11 years. At 130 pence/litre that gives around 14 pence per mile (and I've not found any garages giving fuel away ! ). Some of the differences in costs can be explained by taxation policies but they're unlikely to change anytime soon and I'm not prepared to run the Volvo on 'red gas oil'.

But it's not just cost differences that favour BEVs. Emissions on the road really are zero (apart from tyre particles which are exactly the same as IC engine cars). True, generation might put out some emissions - but there's a world of difference between fumes pothering out the back of a ICE car and those treated with state of the art devices before being discharged 400 feet above the ground. And of course much of the power used by an EV may come from pollution free sources.

I was only asking out of interest in the likely range compared to the test cycle range. Your 2.0D Volvo gives a reasonable indication of you driving style & it's probably why you get a good result from the Leaf as well.

I'm as certain as I can be that my next vehicle will be a TM3. I'm too impatient to hang around waiting for it to charge so being able to charge at home is a 'must' for me. The actual range is therefore significant & also the amount of charge it can take during a 4 hour off peak period.

A 2016 Leaf with a 30kWh battery is supposed to do 107 miles...3.57miles/kWh.

GreatApe

JKenH wrote: »

Interested to know whether you get much difference in mikes per kWh if you do vary your driving style. I was thinking that as long as you stay off the brakes it wouldn’t vary as much as an ICE. Obviously high speed equals high drag but assuming you keep to speed limits does the actual rate of acceleration have much bearing?

Edit: how does town driving compare with open road for economy?

BEVs are efficient and worthwhile

On a fundamental level (chemical energy to kinetic energy) they are not much more efficient than an oil car
But they allow the use of wind solar or nuclear which is a bonus
Plus BEVs will probably in due course become price competitive with oil cars
Just need more competition in the space and for the public to be accepting of 100 mile range versions (which will be fine when there are rapid chargers everywhere which there can and will be because electricity is everywhere)

This doesn't mean EVs won't work
This means both EVs and Oil cars work well

I still think software is the solution to transportation
A shared BEV doing 140,000 miles a year is 10 X as productive as an oil car doing 7,000 miles a year

In the short term I can see a good argument to make taxis BEVs maybe EU wide (or even EU USA China wide) ban taxis unless they are full BEVs

This would create a market for them without the need to hand billions over to rich folk to buy expensive BEVs

A shared BEV like a model 3 (perhaps shared by two or three taxi drivers) clocking in 150,000 miles a year maybe lasting 5 years so 750,000 oil miles displaced is a very productive asset and worthwhile use of the currently limited BEV and battery production capacity

Of course when self drive software finally arrives they make BEVs much more productive
Many people will share in taxi fleets
Many two car households (about 10 million in the UK) will be able to become 1 car households

Dave_Fowler

JKenH wrote: »

Interested to know whether you get much difference in mikes per kWh if you do vary your driving style. I was thinking that as long as you stay off the brakes it wouldn’t vary as much as an ICE. Obviously high speed equals high drag but assuming you keep to speed limits does the actual rate of acceleration have much bearing?

Edit: how does town driving compare with open road for economy?

The Ioniq has a set of regeneration paddles on the steering wheel which you can use to slow down during normal driving, so the excess energy is used to recharge the battery rather than heating the brake pads. This as a side effect reduces pollution from brake dust as you rarely have to use the brakes. Also, as some of the energy used to accelerate is fed back to the battery, carrying extra passengers or heavy loads does not reduce fuel consumption as much as in a conveniional ICE car. Stopping and starting in town traffic or waiting in a traffic jam has a much reduced penalty on consumption.

Dave F

GreatApe

1961Nick wrote: »

I was only asking out of interest in the likely range compared to the test cycle range. Your 2.0D Volvo gives a reasonable indication of you driving style & it's probably why you get a good result from the Leaf as well.

I'm as certain as I can be that my next vehicle will be a TM3. I'm too impatient to hang around waiting for it to charge so being able to charge at home is a 'must' for me. The actual range is therefore significant & also the amount of charge it can take during a 4 hour off peak period.

A 2016 Leaf with a 30kWh battery is supposed to do 107 miles...3.57miles/kWh.

I'm pro early adopters so get a model 3 if you can afford it life isn't all about calculations or saving money it's also about having fun with I'm sure you will with a model 3

I don't think you will have any problems with a model 3 range even limiting yourself to 4h a day charging. Plus remember you can probably charge 4h a day almost always and charge longer for the few days you do more miles you don't strictly have to limit yourself to 4h every time! Maybe set it to start charging at midnight and let it keep going until it's full

That way it's always full but almost always your charging will be done within the 4 hrs of the cheapest rate especially if you install the affordable 7KW charger

1961Nick

GreatApe wrote: »

I'm pro early adopters so get a model 3 if you can afford it life isn't all about calculations or saving money it's also about having fun with I'm sure you will with a model 3

I don't think you will have any problems with a model 3 range even limiting yourself to 4h a day charging which you should do

With an annual mileage of 33K it's going to save me a lot of money....and that's even before all the taxation incentives.

Early adopters of the performance model are reporting a real world range of around 240 miles.....which is probably representative as hypermilers are unlikely to go for that derivative.

GreatApe

I wonder if it would be wise for a BEV like a model 3 to have an option to split it's battery pack

So instead of a 50KWh battery pack in the car maybe a 30KWh pack in the car and a small compact 20KWh pack towed behind with the ability to very easy attach or detach this additional pack

The idea being an owner could keep this additional 25KWh at home most the time and only attach it to the car for when they are doing more than 125 miles.

I think something like that would make a model 3 more interesting

For the same price you get a huge 20KWh home battery pack that you can use as a Tesla power wall plugged into your home

And for most of your daily commute your car would be lighter and more efficient

I think something like this could also normalise lower range EVs
With people realising they can leave their 20KWh towable pack at home almost constantly maybe they would be fine for their next EV to be only 120 mile range