County Court Claim Received - Daughter was the Driver

Umkomaas

The Southampton transcript is now available. Follow CM's advice in the thread about referencing in and attaching to you WS. 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6107909/britannia-parking-v-crosby-southampton-judgment-attach-to-defences-or-witness-statements#latest

nosferatu1001

It is worth arguing this point.
You state that the NtK (STOP using PCN. The NTK is the first postal notice sent to the keeper, and is a key doc. A reminder is not a NTK) was not received. They will state it is sent. YOu then state - prove it. WHen did it enter the course of normal post? Who witnessed this? What are the companies procedures for doing so? If they use a third party mail carrier such as Whistl, then how do they know when it goes into the NORMAL course of post, ie royal mail? And importantly - noone at the hearing can actaully offer ANY info on this, as they will NOT work for the PPC. THeyll be a hired gun. 
As said
The judge can makea  FINDING OF FACT - in fact, they HAVE to because two sides disagree - that means theyre happy it was posted, but they should not be able to find that it was *received* - and thats what POFA requires. 

Old_Bird_65

Thanks very much Umkomaas and nosferatu1001 - hopefully I'll have a gap in my work schedule to work on this this afternoon  

Old_Bird_65

nosferatu1001 said:

It is worth arguing this point.
You state that the NtK (STOP using PCN. The NTK is the first postal notice sent to the keeper, and is a key doc. A reminder is not a NTK) was not received. They will state it is sent. YOu then state - prove it. WHen did it enter the course of normal post? Who witnessed this? What are the companies procedures for doing so? If they use a third party mail carrier such as Whistl, then how do they know when it goes into the NORMAL course of post, ie royal mail? And importantly - noone at the hearing can actaully offer ANY info on this, as they will NOT work for the PPC. THeyll be a hired gun. 
As said
The judge can makea  FINDING OF FACT - in fact, they HAVE to because two sides disagree - that means theyre happy it was posted, but they should not be able to find that it was *received* - and thats what POFA requires. 

Presumably I need to wait until the court date to argue this point, as I'm only supposed list facts in my WS? 

Redx

you cannot ambush them in court

your WS + Exhibits plus COSTS SCHEDULE must have all this in it, so as those facts you are relying on as your argument you must write them into your WS and query the lack of any docs etc as well , so you write them down so that they can be picked over and argued in court later on , as a dispute over the evidence (facts , exhibits etc)

put your case in writing and add your exhibits as well , as a bundle

the bones can be picked over in court, if it gets that far

Old_Bird_65

Okay, thanks, that makes sense 

Old_Bird_65

I've just been printing out emails and I've come across something which I am hoping will be very helpful to me as regards the non-received NTK. All the early correspondence with CEL has referred to it as a PCN, and I'm going to quote correspondence which includes it, so please forgive me for using the term! In my initial complaint to CEL, I noted that I had received no communication from them prior to their letter demanding payment. Their response to me was:

"In view of your correspondence, even if you have received a reminder demanding payment at the higher rate, we have extended the time allowance for you to pay at the original reduced charge by a further 14 days staring witht he date printed at the top of this letter"

As well as this, they wrote to our MP, Nus Ghani, who was looking into it for me and said:|

“Whilst she states that she did not receive the original PCN, she was in no way prejudiced by this as she was still afforded the opportunity to appeal with us and with POPLA, as well as being offered the chance to pay the reduced rate of the PCN.”
Am I right in thinking this gives us reasonable cause to believe they didn't know for sure whether they actually sent me the NTK?  

Redx

I wouldnt make assumptions but you can add that as proof of your own conduct etc, plus that the MP was helping you

but as a two edged sword, the judge could ask you what happened when you appealed to CEL and to POPLA once given those opportunities, so have a good answer ready, because court is the last resort if you didnt bother and judges may not like themselves having to sort out the mess due to not appealing (sorry, not read back, you know the backstory better then me)

if the appeals were rejected, then a judge wouldnt have an issue

but it may help a KEEPER using POFA as a possible scenario as you say

Old_Bird_65

Hmm...  the first comment CEL made was as a response to my first appeal, to them and the second one, made to Nus Ghani after they had put their court claim in, so it was too late to use the second statement in an appeal. I didn't really understand the significance of the timings for paperwork when I did my appeal to POPLA - my focus was more on faulty Phone And Pay system. It was only after the POPLA appeal that I saw CEL's phone records, which I could have used against them if I'd known before. 

Redx

then make all this a supplementary WS , a sidetrack to the main WS where you are addressing the main issues

ie:- elaborate as a supplementary as you are doing above, along with any other side issues like the ones coupon mad posted about the Southampton case etc (abuse of process, added sourious charges etc) + Warwick + Skipton