PIP tribunal and evidence (or lack of).

calcotti

CakeCrusader wrote: »

This is massively helpful, thank you so much! I'm his rep (he's ticked the rep box and filled in my details). I've already checked the points and the criteria, I'm not sure he'll go to the CAB, he gets anxious so it may be difficult, but I'll ask. I lodged the appeal online and I'll follow your guidance above.

It will be sensible to contact the tribunal to check that they have recorded the appeal. It appears that some (hopefully only a few) online appeals disappear.

CakeCrusader

calcotti wrote: »

It will be sensible to contact the tribunal to check that they have recorded the appeal. It appears that some (hopefullyonly ages) online appeals disappear.

Thank you. I received a 'you are the registered representative...' email pretty much right away and I took a screen shot of the submission screen (there was a 'we'll send you confirmation in 3 days below', I think). I'll give them a few working days and I'll check.

Alice_Holt

Just a bit more about the evidence bundle and writing a submission.

It's often quite possible to write a powerful submission from just the contents of the bundle.
Particularly if there is a consistent picture emerging from the original / previous PIP forms; the previous assessment (s); and the AR1 / PIP2 form written before the disputed assessment. A fairly straightforward quotation / compare and contrast exercise between these documents and the disputed assessment can help paint a clear picture for the tribunal panel (and also diminish the credibility of the disputed report).

Often the latest assessment itself will contain internal inconsistencies. Along the lines of -
claimant said they don't go out due to anxiety; but no points scored because informal observations of the assessor showed the claimant coped well and the Mental State Examination (MSE) showed the claimant could recall 3 objects etc,etc. All complete nonsense, and fairly easily debunked.

Include brief illustrations / examples from the time of the decision date in your submission. Centre it on the PIP descriptors.

There is some case law around the fact that if an assessment removes a previous award (and the claimant still has those conditions / difficulties), then the reasons for removing an award need to be very clear and very strong.
Too often (especially for anxiety, depression, poor mental health) the disputed assessment is so badly flawed it completely misrepresents the impact of these conditions on the claimant - a score of 0 points suggest this may be the case with your child's assessment.

In my experience tribunal panels can quickly identify and disregard DWP / ATOS inaccuracies, nonsense cut and paste paragraphs, etc. Hence why over 70% of PIP appeals succeed.

poppy12345

CakeCrusader wrote: »

TI'm his rep (he's ticked the rep box and filled in my details).

Are you his appointee? Being a rep doesn't mean you'll be able to speak on his behalf.

CakeCrusader

poppy12345 wrote: »

Are you his appointee? Being a rep doesn't mean you'll be able to speak on his behalf.

I ticked both, I'm not sure I'll be allowed to be his appointee though as he's mentally OK (apart from the crippling anxiety and the social skills issues).

CakeCrusader

Alice_Holt wrote: »

Just a bit more about the evidence bundle and writing a submission.

It's often quite possible to write a powerful submission from just the contents of the bundle.
Particularly if there is a consistent picture emerging from the original / previous PIP forms; the previous assessment (s); and the AR1 / PIP2 form written before the disputed assessment. A fairly straightforward quotation / compare and contrast exercise between these documents and the disputed assessment can help paint a clear picture for the tribunal panel (and also diminish the credibility of the disputed report).

Often the latest assessment itself will contain internal inconsistencies. Along the lines of -
claimant said they don't go out due to anxiety; but no points scored because informal observations of the assessor showed the claimant coped well and the Mental State Examination (MSE) showed the claimant could recall 3 objects etc,etc. All complete nonsense, and fairly easily debunked.

Include brief illustrations / examples from the time of the decision date in your submission. Centre it on the PIP descriptors.

There is some case law around the fact that if an assessment removes a previous award (and the claimant still has those conditions / difficulties), then the reasons for removing an award need to be very clear and very strong.
Too often (especially for anxiety, depression, poor mental health) the disputed assessment is so badly flawed it completely misrepresents the impact of these conditions on the claimant - a score of 0 points suggest this may be the case with your child's assessment.

In my experience tribunal panels can quickly identify and disregard DWP / ATOS inaccuracies, nonsense cut and paste paragraphs, etc. Hence why over 70% of PIP appeals succeed.

This is great, thank you so much!! I was getting DLA for him since he was about 9, he had the same issues then (couldn't cook or have depression and anxiety though). They switched him over to PIP when he turned 16, he was assessed by a DWP OT and was awarded the high rate care. They sent another form a year and a half later, nothing had changed, I sent no evidence (just the form), they awarded the same rate again. A year and a half later he had another assessment and they stopped it all. The only thing that has changed since he was 9 is the anxiety and the depression. I'll take a really good look through the bundle when they send it but the awards span back 11 years.



They've said 'your mental state examination showed you were calm and relaxed, made appropriate eye contact, your mood appeared stable and you did not need any questions repeated or simplified. You appeared to have insight into your condition, medication and functional abilities and were well orientated to the environment'. I was there which is why he may have seemed "calm and relaxed", but he was stammering for 80% of the time, the assessor had to rephrase 1/4 of the questions and I had to rephrase another 1/4. I don't think his eye contact is relevant, even with Aspergers people can have good eye contact, mood appearance is different to how he felt (we came straight home and he went back to bed). He isn't able to remember when to take his medication, he doesn't remember what it is, I had to answer this for him.



I'll take a look through Lexis and Westlaw for some case law (I'm a LPC grad but we don't do any social security law), thank you so much!!

poppy12345

CakeCrusader wrote: »

I ticked both, I'm not sure I'll be allowed to be his appointee though as he's mentally OK (apart from the crippling anxiety and the social skills issues).

If he's capable of looking after his own finances then you would have no reason to need to become his appointee.



I just don't want you to think that being his rep means you'll be able to speak on his behalf. This isn't what a rep is for. You don't need a rep for a Tribunal, although it can help with presenting the case but it's not essential. They will expect him to speak for himself during the hearing.

CakeCrusader

poppy12345 wrote: »

If he's capable of looking after his own finances then you would have no reason to need to become his appointee.



I just don't want you to think that being his rep means you'll be able to speak on his behalf. This isn't what a rep is for. You don't need a rep for a Tribunal, although it can help with presenting the case but it's not essential. They will expect him to speak for himself during the hearing.

He does buy the odd daft thing and he doesn't know how to budget but it's hard when someone else pays the bills. He's getting there so I don't think being is appointee is the right thing.



He gets muddled up with dates, times etc so it's helpful for him if I knew when his date was etc. I don't think he'll be able to look for information either, he panics. I just want to support him, some things you have to do for yourself but if you have someone supporting you it makes a huge difference.

Alice_Holt

CakeCrusader wrote: »

They've said 'your mental state examination showed you were calm and relaxed, made appropriate eye contact, your mood appeared stable and you did not need any questions repeated or simplified. You appeared to have insight into your condition, medication and functional abilities and were well orientated to the environment'. I was there which is why he may have seemed "calm and relaxed", but he was stammering for 80% of the time, the assessor had to rephrase 1/4 of the questions and I had to rephrase another 1/4. I don't think his eye contact is relevant, even with Aspergers people can have good eye contact, mood appearance is different to how he felt (we came straight home and he went back to bed). He isn't able to remember when to take his medication, he doesn't remember what it is, I had to answer this for him.

That sounds very familiar. The usual "reasons" for having to justify a nonsensical assessment.

Any tribunal would see a clear case for support with social engagement from the above. It is important that your son attends the hearing. Not so much to put the forward the argument himself (your submission will have done that for him), but so the panel can see him and get an understanding of his condition. You can put a para in the submission to explain his anxiety about attending, his difficulty in explaining / understanding, and request that with the permission of the panel you are allowed (having asked them first) to help him answer fully, and clarify any points together, and to help him remain as calm as possible.

IMO Panels are very used to dealing with very anxious and upset claimants , so do their very best to create an environment where the claimant feels able to explain fully.
It may help to explain to him that the panel are there to see if the decision the DWP made was right or wrong. To decide this, they need his help to explain about his day-to-day life. He is not under examination - the DWP decision maker is. But the panel will need information from him- he just has to tell them about a normal day, and answer any questions as best he can.

Don't be too concerned with quoting case law. However, it would be worth looking at a copy of the Disability Rights Handbook at your local library, and any relevant CPAG publications.
The Benefits & Work site has a very good guide to PIP appeals - may be worth the c.£20 membership fee to access it.

calcotti

Alice_Holt wrote: »

He is not under examination - the DWP decision maker is.

I've never thought of it like that but that's an excellent way of looking at it.