Electric Companies Hike Prices after motorists switch to EV

phill99

I bet you think Hitler is alive and well in Argentina don't you?

Joe_Horner

DrEskimo wrote: »

Then the question is, is it hidden somewhere in the running costs of an EV? The OP point is that EV's are cheaper to run than ICE for now, but will that change as EV's grow in popularity.

My argument is that yes, the running costs of EV's will probably rise, but relative to an ICE (which will also likely see rises), EV's will still be the cost effective option.

By every measure of running a car (depreciation, insurance, VED, maintenance, servicing and 'fuel') me having an EV for the last 6-months has been substantially cheaper than me running an equivalent ICE. I don't suspect this will change.

It doesn't matter where they raise the extra tax, they will raise it from your pay. So any "saving" from an EV will be an accounting trick in the same way that oil companies sell their petrol to their own petrol stations at an inflated cost so they can claim they "make a loss on the forecourts".

If you (and everyone else) makes a "saving" of, say £1000 a year by switching to EVs then the government will take that £1000 (or more) off you in other ways.

Whether that's through changes in VAT, reductions in Local Govt funding so your council tax rises, new charges for stuff like GP appointments that are currently free, or whatever, doesn't matter. Your "saving" will be nothing but an illusion to keep the masses happy and you won't actually save a single penny in the long run.

almillar wrote: »

Unless you know of somewhere I can buy untaxed petrol, or electricity, I think you mean you need to compared the TAXED prices of both.

No, the only fair comparison is the basic untaxed cost of both because, as more people move to EVs, the government will raise the equivalent tax (and likely, more) elsewhere. So the tax (or current lack of it on EVs) is a distortion of the true cost.

DrEskimo

Joe_Horner wrote: »

It doesn't matter where they raise the extra tax, they will raise it from your pay. So any "saving" from an EV will be an accounting trick in the same way that oil companies sell their petrol to their own petrol stations at an inflated cost so they can claim they "make a loss on the forecourts".

If you (and everyone else) makes a "saving" of, say £1000 a year by switching to EVs then the government will take that £1000 (or more) off you in other ways.

Whether that's through changes in VAT, reductions in Local Govt funding so your council tax rises, new charges for stuff like GP appointments that are currently free, or whatever, doesn't matter. Your "saving" will be nothing but an illusion to keep the masses happy and you won't actually save a single penny in the long run.



No, the only fair comparison is the basic untaxed cost of both because, as more people move to EVs, the government will raise the equivalent tax (and likely, more) elsewhere. So the tax (or current lack of it on EVs) is a distortion of the true cost.

I see the point you're trying to make, and it's a good one, but I think you are missing the more basic aspect of the argument...!

The question is, all else being equal, is an EV cheaper than an ICE? Yes, the tax savings from an EV may go towards prices rising in other areas of Government spending, but those will be equal regardless of whether you run an ICE or an EV. GP appointments, VAT changes, etc. are not specific to the car you drive.

So the rise in taxes in other areas is only pertinent to the EV vs. ICE costs question if it affects running costs directly related to either of those vehicles.

Joe_Horner

DrEskimo wrote: »

So the rise in taxes in other areas is only pertinent to the EV vs. ICE costs question if it affects running costs directly related to either of those vehicles.

That only holds while the majority of vehicles are still ICE. In the short term EVs are certainly cheaper, but only because their use is effectively being subsidised by the massive tax take from ICE cars in fuel duty and VED.

As the ability to subsidise collapses (that's one tipping point that will definitely happen at some point) your EV - whether directly, or through some form of road pricing or indirectly through increased taxation elsewhere - will end up costing just as much (or more) than ICE does under current conditions.

So, short term savings - yes. Long term? It's smoke & mirrors.

DrEskimo

Joe_Horner wrote: »

That only holds while the majority of vehicles are still ICE. In the short term EVs are certainly cheaper, but only because their use is effectively being subsidised by the massive tax take from ICE cars in fuel duty and VED.

As the ability to subsidise collapses (that's one tipping point that will definitely happen at some point) your EV - whether directly, or through some form of road pricing or indirectly through increased taxation elsewhere - will end up costing just as much (or more) than ICE does under current conditions.

So, short term savings - yes. Long term? It's smoke & mirrors.

Sorry I really don't understand the point you are trying to make?

"will end up costing just as much (or more) than ICE does under current conditions."

Are you trying to suggest that an EV in, say 30-years time, will be equally/more expensive to run than an ICE today...?

Why does that matter? Surely the point is, is it cheaper to run an EV or ICE today? Think we all agree it is. Will it be cheaper to run an EV or ICE in 30-years time? think it's probably likely to still be an EV.....

For an ICE in the future to cost less than an EV, fuel prices would have to decrease, or electricity prices would have to increase above the cost of fuel. Or, there would have to be other increases in costs specific to running an EV, such as higher VED.

motorguy

Bachelorplace wrote: »

What is to stop Electric Companies from hiking prices of kwh when they know a car is being charged, or in general, hike the prices anyway knowing that their customers will have no option but to pay it.

The EV sales tricks speak of how much you are saving - sure NOW - but when there are 5 million electric cars on the road the electric providers can simply creep prices up so that anyone who has switched is not saving money on fuel hardly at all.

Electric cars are not about saving money, they are about getting away from Internal Combustion Engine cars.

Whilst there "may" be a cost saving to be had, it is not their objective.

I fully expect the government to introduce some sort of taxation on electric cars once they start to really lose money from fuel sales. Its tax revenue after all, so they need to raise tax money somehow.

Herzlos

Joe_Horner wrote: »

That only holds while the majority of vehicles are still ICE.

Not really, because you can be sure that the tax and fuel cost of ICE is only going to increase, especially after EV hits critical mass and you don't get enough volume from petrol stations.

almillar

No, the only fair comparison is the basic untaxed cost of both because, as more people move to EVs, the government will raise the equivalent tax (and likely, more) elsewhere. So the tax (or current lack of it on EVs) is a distortion of the true cost.

I know what you mean, but to ignore the whims of the government's taxation policy is to live in a fantasy world. We have to pay it.
As it is right now, they give you a grant to buy an EV, don't tax it if it's below ~£40k, and you pay far less for fuel. Strip the taxes away from the fuel, and an EV STILL goes further for the money (but yes, the benefits aren't as big, if that's your point). EVs come with more than just financial incentives, and you're determined to run those down.

So, short term savings - yes. Long term? It's smoke & mirrors

So, running an EV will inevitably get more expensive. What if we all continue with our ICE cars then, and give the gov two fingers?! Oh, that's right, we'll keep causing pollution, and the fuel source will run out faster. And of course, the more it runs out, the more expensive it will get.


Taxes, like death, are inevitable. Your argument seems to be that the gov will eventually shaft EVs. Fair enough. They'll shaft us all somehow. Sticking with an ICE car will not protect you from the shafting, so it's not a good basis for arguing against EVs.


If you're that worried about the tax benefits of EVs vanishing, get in while you can. Just on 'purchasing' EVs, the government has given me £9,500 and a charger!

SensibleSarah

I know several people with EVs who have also now had solar PV systems (and home storage batteries) fitted. Obviously there is a lump sum to get this type of system installed in the first place, but at least it puts you in control of your electrictity destiny in some part. Unlikely to do anything more than break even (at best) with this type of setup for the moment, but if electricity costs do jump significantly.... who knows. Won't work for everyone of course, but if I could afford it, I wouldn't hesitate to go this route in the next 12 months.

edgex

ToxicWomble wrote: »

Don’t forget the government will be also be losing millions (billions) in fuel duty.
Expect them to tax electricity to compensate

not road charging?
taxes on car parking?