Credit card fraud but the bank dont believe me!

Terry_Towelling

LordSmug wrote: »

You think that chip & PIN cards cannot be cloned?
Think again

And as a clone is essentially an exact copy of the original (save possinly for any cosmetic differences), no ATM will be able to distinguish between the original and a copy.

Most cloning operations involve capturing the magstripe data and then using it in non-CHIP & PIN markets. Some CHIP frauds involve 'capturing' completed transactions and re-running them. Another CHIP fraud seems to involve installing apps on a CHIP that ask the POS device to skip certain security measures. They can even circumvent the off-line PIN verification step such that the app in the CHIP will say any PIN is valid.

Now I don't know what additional security is being rolled out to POS devices to recognise these things are happening but I believe that ATM transactions are not off-line PIN-verified but on-line PIN-verified. I'm not sure that the fraudster's app is able to circumvent that.

LordSmug wrote:

But what we do know is:

Fran56 wrote:

So the ATM which the money was withdrawn from that it states on my statement have told me that it was not that ATM ...
Originally posted by Fran56

Confirmed again here:

Fran56 wrote:

.... And the bank have said it wasnt their ATM.
Originally posted by Fran56

What these statements appear to indicate is that the ATM was probably not an ATM. So are they transactions 're-run' through a stolen POS device with a doctored retailer description and then processed via a collusive retailer's account?

Frankly, I think that is all pie in the sky. Anyway, Fran56, I'll ask you again, tell us about the AUS$ transaction amounts, the cash withdrawal fees and the dates they hit your account. If you can't provide these, I will have to assume your account is not accurate. You might also want to check with your card issuers to see what was contained in the authorisation messages of these transactions. That could be quite telling.

eco_warrior

LordSmug wrote: »

You think that chip & PIN cards cannot be cloned?
Think again

And as a clone is essentially an exact copy of the original (save possinly for any cosmetic differences), no ATM will be able to distinguish between the original and a copy.

But what we do know is:



Confirmed again here:

I’ve not seen any cases where a chip was copied, no.

Have you?

CityLite

eco_warrior wrote: »

I’ve not seen any cases where a chip was copied, no.

Have you?

Presumably you've not looked very hard. :cool:

e.g. https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5674435/chip-pin-debit-card-cloning

https://www.kaspersky.com/blog/chip-n-pin-cloning/21502/

Plenty more examples also available

eco_warrior

CityLite wrote: »

Presumably you've not looked very hard. :cool:

e.g. https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5674435/chip-pin-debit-card-cloning

https://www.kaspersky.com/blog/chip-n-pin-cloning/21502/

Plenty more examples also available

I wouldn't take the thread on here as evidence of anything to be honest. The one person mentioning cloning chips does explain that its technically possible but doesn't say they have any experience of seeing it done, which was what I asked.

The blog is interesting. Still, I have yet to see a "real life" example of a chip being cloned, so my scepticism remains for the time being.

cymruchris

To the OP - if the bank have stated the transactions were not fraudulent - have you asked for details as to how you can escalate the issue internally before going to an outside body?

Terry_Towelling

The suspicion here is that the transactions are not ATM transactions but purchases cleared to look like ATM transactions. This is why I have asked OP about the fees charged with the transaction - cash usually attracts a fee - and also have suggested they speak with their Issuers about the data in the Authorisation Messages - that data will reveal whether they are Cash transactions or otherwise and may get us closer to the answer.

Another side of the story might be the transaction Counters held within the CHIPs. The genuine CHIPs will have the genuine transaction counts. If this still matches after these 'fraudulent' transactions, that suggests the genuine cards were used. They would have to surrender their cards to the Issuers for this to be investigated.

The fact OP has not come back with the required information suggests they have either got it sorted, or were never serious about getting an answer, or just fabricated a scenario to exercise us.

Robin9

I think the Bank's are going to take a lot of convincing - for two CC's to have been skimmed and then used at the same ATM ?

Kentish_Dave

How would a machine clone a chip? I admit I can’t remember all the details but is the operation not akin to a hashing calculation, a trapdoor function that lets the machine check that the chip and pin are in accord but without giving enough information on the chip to clone anything?

Ergates

Fran56 wrote: »

I questioned this with the bank which the ATM machine is at and they informed me that the information that it states on my statement is not the same as what would appear if I was to withdraw money from their cash point.

I'm curious how an Australian bank would know what an ATM transaction would look like on the statement of a UK credit card.

Terry_Towelling

Ergates wrote: »

I'm curious how an Australian bank would know what an ATM transaction would look like on the statement of a UK credit card.

I think the Australian bank (all banks in fact) will have a standard 'merchant/bank narrative' that they will transmit with a transaction. I am guessing that the 'narrative' description provided by OP to the ATM provider does not match with the narrative that they believe they would be sending.

That suggests the transactions may (possibly) be counterfeit in some way but processed through a valid (collusive) merchant account and made to look like ATM transactions from a bank. Quite how they would manage to 'doctor' the narrative through a valid merchant account I cannot say.

This is why I have repeatedly asked OP to tell us about the fees applied to the transactions. If they are cash, there will be fees. If there are no fees, they aren't cash and the narrative has been manipulated to make it look like cash.

The fact OP has not come back actually reinforces the argument that the thread is a complete fabrication posted to exercise us during the long school holidays.