Appeal deadline looming - please help

Redx

top of this forum , third thread down , read the botton of post #1 about lease and hire vehicles , then scroll down to post #3 about popla appeals, bearing in mind the different parameters for lease vehicles as outlined by edna basher

ie:- POFA guidelines are different because you are not the RK, the lease of hire co is the RK , which in your case is LEX

Ed_Winchester

Many thanks but I am confused as a newbie here even after reading those threads. It seems to advise appealing as the keeper but then you said Lex is the keeper yet I received the PCN.

I can't see anything on the 15 day deadline and they definitely dated their notice more than 15 days after the alleged offence and it of course arrived even later than that. If it is a deadline of 15 actual (not working) days for them to send me the PCN via the post, I can easily prove they did not so surely I can just appeal on those grounds to POPLA and it is an open and shut case, or am I wrong. If I can appeal to them, what am I classed as, as I am not the Keeper?

Redx

LEX is the Registered Keeper if you are on a lease contract , note the word REGISTERED

ie:- if they are on the V5C , they are registered keeper, not you, its not your vehicle if its on a lease , you are the LESSEE (KEEPER - ie:- day to day keeper)

so you are the lessee under the terms of the lease , meaning you are the day to day keeper , not the REGISTERED KEEPER, a RK is registered with the DVLA

an owner can be a bank , or LEX FINANCE , or TOYOTA FINANCE , or BARCLAYS BANK

a DRIVER is the person that drove and parked the vehicle and made the contract with the parking company

you told us its a lease vehicle from LEX, so POFA has a specific section, wording and timescales for lease and hire and company vehicles

dont blame us if you have complicated matters by having a lease vehicle instead of owning it

to put it in context , I am the OWNER , REGISTERED KEEPER , KEEPER and sometimes DRIVER of my private vehicle , MY NAME is on the V5C (log book) and is registered with the DVLA , so I am the REGISTERED KEEPER

if your name is not on the V5C and therefore if you are not REGISTERED with the DVLA , then you are not the REGISTERED KEEPER

now do you get it ? if yes ,

then do you have a V5C in your own name ?

if not , its a leased vehicle and the V5C would be in the name of LEX , meaning a different timescale for POFA applies , as explained by edna basher

Fruitcake

The registered keeper is the person/entity whose name appears on the V5.
The day to day keeper is the person who keeps or looks after the car on a day to day basis.

The hirer/lessee is the day to day keeper, but the initial appeal was, or should have been as lessee/hirer. This is the advice you were given.
Most PPCs are incapable of getting the paperwork right where a vehicle is hired or leased, which is why you were advised to go down that route. Did you do this?

If instead you appealed as (day to day) keeper then all is not lost. I'm not sure if you can appeal to PoPLA as hirer/lessee unless you tell the PPC this first.
See what others say.

You can in any case appeal as (day to day) keeper using non PoFA complaint NTK as point 1 (NTK arrived too late to transfer liability to the keeper.)
You will also need to get pics of the site and signage and use all the other template appeal points available to you from post 3 of the NEWBIES.
These will normally include Not the Landowner, No standing to bring charges, No Contract, as well as Non PoFA NTK and Inadequate signage as already mentioned.

Show us your draft before you submit it.

Ed_Winchester

Hi Redx. Not sure if you are joking or not but if not - I'm not blaming anyone that I have a leased car.

I have tried my best to read the info and your posts and have just had my appeal to eurocarparks turned down in which I used the excessive charge argument £60 then £100 for a £2 cost (the occupants didn't see the sign but there is one there) and that the PCN letter was dated more than 15 (actually - 18) days after the alleged offence took place and arrived several days after that of course, so I hoped that would work.

I do lease a personal car from Lex and haven't seen the V5 so assume it is in Lex's name and am confused if my 15 day appeal will work. I can't find the different timescale for leased cars info where I am the keeper but this is not a case where Lex have received the PCN as far as I know, I am only aware of the one sent to me.

Can I appeal on the 15 day issue or do I need to do something else?

Sorry to bother you, but I am very stressed with family health issues to try and manage on top of the usual daily grind.

Thanks in advance

Ed_Winchester

Hi Redx. Not sure if you are joking or not but if not - I'm not blaming anyone that I have a leased car.

I have tried my best to read the info and your posts and have just had my appeal to eurocarparks turned down in which I used the excessive charge argument £60 then £100 for a £2 cost (the occupants didn't see the sign but there is one there) and that the PCN letter was dated more than 15 (actually - 18) days after the alleged offence took place and arrived several days after that of course, so I hoped that would work.

I don't know if it's relevant and if it is - how would I know when they got my name from the Registered Keeper to measure the 21 days that may apply?

I do lease a personal car from Lex and haven't seen the V5 so assume it is in Lex's name and am confused if my 15 day appeal will work or not. I can't find the different timescale for leased cars info where I am the keeper but this is not a case where Lex have received the PCN as far as I know, I am only aware of the one sent to me.

Can I appeal on the 15 day issue or do I need to do something else?

Sorry to bother you, but I am very stressed with family health issues to try and manage on top of the usual daily grind.

Thanks in advance

Redx

excessive charge went out the window with the BARRY BEAVIS case at the Supreme Court 2 years ago or more

the 15 day rule applies to me as a private keeper but not you as a lessee

yes the V5C is in the name of LEX meaning you are not the RK , they probably received the NTK, possibly within 15 days , then they named the keeper (you , as lessee or hirer)

the PPC then wrote to you as lessee , or as hirer , or as keeper (day to day keeper , but NOT as Registered Keeper because LEX has that title , not you

my point was that is complicated because you are leasing a vehicle instead of owning it , so I am saying its your own fault if you dont understand the issues with having a vehicle on lease

what is worse is that you dont know about the BEAVIS case and also dont understand why the 15 day rule doesnt apply to you (it only applied to LEX as the RK)

therefore you would be very foolish to appeal on the 15 day rule , plus very foolish to appeal on the excessive charge due to the BEAVIS ruling

your popla appeal should focus on the same issues as every other hire or lease or company vehicle popla appeal has included since the BEAVIS case 2 years ago , especially any from this year , 2019

POFA has a specific section for lease vehicles, including timescales , wordings and the fact the hire or lease docs must be included with the NTH you were sent by ECP

I accept its complicated , but you are responsible for the leaee bcause its in your name , which also means that under POFA you as a lessee have a responsibility , as does LEX , LEX tried to do the right thing and named the lessee (you) to get out of the loop and leave you holding the problem

POFA is almost 7 years old and many companies still fail to abide by it , but LEX seem to have done so, handing the baton to you

2 of your arguments are badly flawed (excessive charge and the 15 day rule) , the first fails for everyone since the BEAVIS case , the second fails because its on a lease and not privately owned like mine is

I can use the 15 day rule , you cannot use it


read the section on lease vehicles at the BOTTOM of post #1 of the NEWBIES thread


then read the 3 threads linked in that section, where its explained in detail

Ed_Winchester

Many thanks for your detailed explanation.

I originally appealed to ECP just before the deadline and being short of time - interpreted the forum guidance (perhaps wrongly) to use relevant parts of the template which I guessed to be the unfair charge (which I copied from a template) and the 15 day rule which another member suggested.

They were my only grounds for appeal.

I now understand why they probably won’t work so can I still appeal to POPLA using your suggested tactics or have I blown it?

Redx

I doubt you have blown it , just been misguided by thinking the private keeper section applied and you ignored the bottom of post #1 below the blue text appeal

read the LEASE VEHICLES section so you understand the POFA timescales, read the 3 threads linked in there , especially reading any posts by edna basher and coupon mad, and the HIGHVIEW explanation by Castle

then find and read recent popla appeals for hire or lease or company vehicles , from this year , then adapt one , especially the successful ones

KeithP

Earlier today a person reported a PoPLA appeal win with a hire car.

See this thread:

forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=6033964

And the PoPLA appeal rsponse:

forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=76232458#post76232458