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Huge family financial mess
WigglyWoo2
Posts: 2 Newbie
Argh, where to start...
Obviously I need to be brief and I would love any advice from as many people as poss at this stage. I have no idea what to do...
I have one brother & one sister, our mum is still alive and in her mid 70s, our dad died a year ago. My brother lives in the USA and relations aren't great. My sister and I both have joint Power of Attorney for my mum and she's in good health generally so she looks after her own finances etc at the moment. My sister has bought a few flats intending to let them out and has over extended herself financially many times in the last 4 years. She gave up a good job due to mental health issues and has ended up living with my Mum paying no rent or bills and her belongings are in storage. My Mum pays for all her food, taxis and even her dog-related costs! A few weeks before my dad died, while she, my mum and me had joint POA for him (he had dementia) my sister 'borrowed' £15k from my Dad and transferred it from his online bank account. He would have agreed at that moment to a loan but she has not paid it back. It wasn't discussed with me and she was reluctant that I knew as it wasn't in my Dad's best interests. After this I had a look at the general finances that my sister has in place for her flats and they are a joke and a total mess. She's maxxed out loans and credit cards to.pay for costs and unfortunate hiccups and she has zero financial sense or even common sense. The costs and losses and bad luck so far are hideous and laughable but that's her problem, as an out of work adult she is in the wrong business and needs to wake up. However it has not stopped with the £15K loan/gift as she has also been asking my mum to bung her thousands and thousands more to make ends meet with builders, solicitors, fees, general mess-ups etc. This includes £5.5K spent as cash deposits at auction buying more flats that she then lost as she couldn't pay the rest. The total that she has taken from my mum and dad is now £27k. My Mum has stopped telling me how much she gives her as she knows it has worried me so much. My Mum doesn't want to give the money away, she knows it is equivalent to throwing it down the drain but she is scared to say No. There is no sign of an end to the financial mess of my sister as she is currently being sued by the freeholder of the building she owns flats within for non payment of charges, the 'business' makes a huge loss and the wolf is only kept from the door by more scrounging. My sister's irresponsibility with money knows no bounds, she has just paid £3k rent on a holiday home in France that will cost her hundreds to travel to as she cannot drive. My Mum will probably put her in a taxi to the south of France just to get a few weeks peace. Anyway, my mum is truly scared to rock the boat and fears any reaction from my sister should she refuse to fund her. My Mum is really worried about my sister's mental health as there are issues that may reoccur. My Mum's finances are not bottomless and us other siblings are largely kept in the dark about the money she hands over to my sister. My mum is ashamed to tell us how she has been manipulated but I feel it is my responsibility to protect her. I'm at the point of wanting to prevent any further gifts of money into the black hole and I feel that my sister is unfit to be POA for anyone! I could make a complaint to the court of protection about her asking a man with a half an hour memory span to lend her £15k weeks before he died and while he was in hospital, but that might blow the family apart for good. I cannot talk to my sister as she is incredibly socially inept and she literally will tut and storm out. She behaves like a spoilt child and she doesn't realise that I know the extent of her mess. She's at the point of lying blatantly about her 'business' and she pretends she has lots of money to anyone outside the household. That is laughable as she cannot afford a taxi. The ongoing costs of the credit and properties are horrendous and there won't ever be an end to this mess as she took out a £220k bridging loan backed by her only property leaving her with nothing but an unprofitable set up. Help! What would you do if you were the sensible and concerned sibling who feels totally out of their depth and very angry at the position my mum has ended up in? Any advice welcome, I'm gauging opinions and I may well have to speak to my brother asap.
Thank you!
Obviously I need to be brief and I would love any advice from as many people as poss at this stage. I have no idea what to do...
I have one brother & one sister, our mum is still alive and in her mid 70s, our dad died a year ago. My brother lives in the USA and relations aren't great. My sister and I both have joint Power of Attorney for my mum and she's in good health generally so she looks after her own finances etc at the moment. My sister has bought a few flats intending to let them out and has over extended herself financially many times in the last 4 years. She gave up a good job due to mental health issues and has ended up living with my Mum paying no rent or bills and her belongings are in storage. My Mum pays for all her food, taxis and even her dog-related costs! A few weeks before my dad died, while she, my mum and me had joint POA for him (he had dementia) my sister 'borrowed' £15k from my Dad and transferred it from his online bank account. He would have agreed at that moment to a loan but she has not paid it back. It wasn't discussed with me and she was reluctant that I knew as it wasn't in my Dad's best interests. After this I had a look at the general finances that my sister has in place for her flats and they are a joke and a total mess. She's maxxed out loans and credit cards to.pay for costs and unfortunate hiccups and she has zero financial sense or even common sense. The costs and losses and bad luck so far are hideous and laughable but that's her problem, as an out of work adult she is in the wrong business and needs to wake up. However it has not stopped with the £15K loan/gift as she has also been asking my mum to bung her thousands and thousands more to make ends meet with builders, solicitors, fees, general mess-ups etc. This includes £5.5K spent as cash deposits at auction buying more flats that she then lost as she couldn't pay the rest. The total that she has taken from my mum and dad is now £27k. My Mum has stopped telling me how much she gives her as she knows it has worried me so much. My Mum doesn't want to give the money away, she knows it is equivalent to throwing it down the drain but she is scared to say No. There is no sign of an end to the financial mess of my sister as she is currently being sued by the freeholder of the building she owns flats within for non payment of charges, the 'business' makes a huge loss and the wolf is only kept from the door by more scrounging. My sister's irresponsibility with money knows no bounds, she has just paid £3k rent on a holiday home in France that will cost her hundreds to travel to as she cannot drive. My Mum will probably put her in a taxi to the south of France just to get a few weeks peace. Anyway, my mum is truly scared to rock the boat and fears any reaction from my sister should she refuse to fund her. My Mum is really worried about my sister's mental health as there are issues that may reoccur. My Mum's finances are not bottomless and us other siblings are largely kept in the dark about the money she hands over to my sister. My mum is ashamed to tell us how she has been manipulated but I feel it is my responsibility to protect her. I'm at the point of wanting to prevent any further gifts of money into the black hole and I feel that my sister is unfit to be POA for anyone! I could make a complaint to the court of protection about her asking a man with a half an hour memory span to lend her £15k weeks before he died and while he was in hospital, but that might blow the family apart for good. I cannot talk to my sister as she is incredibly socially inept and she literally will tut and storm out. She behaves like a spoilt child and she doesn't realise that I know the extent of her mess. She's at the point of lying blatantly about her 'business' and she pretends she has lots of money to anyone outside the household. That is laughable as she cannot afford a taxi. The ongoing costs of the credit and properties are horrendous and there won't ever be an end to this mess as she took out a £220k bridging loan backed by her only property leaving her with nothing but an unprofitable set up. Help! What would you do if you were the sensible and concerned sibling who feels totally out of their depth and very angry at the position my mum has ended up in? Any advice welcome, I'm gauging opinions and I may well have to speak to my brother asap.
Thank you!
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Comments
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Please could you break your wall of text up into paragraphs, it is difficult to read as it is.1
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You're going to have to talk to both of them. If mum keeps gifting sister money she'll end up being caught on a sticky wicket with regard to disposing assets if she ever needs a care home. Basically the state will treat her as if she still has the thousands she's given away to your sister.0
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This sounds like elder abuse to me. Take a look at this website - https://www.elderabuse.org.uk/. They have a helpline, they might be able to tell you what's possible.No longer a spouse, or trailing, but MSE won't allow me to change my username...0
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I would definitely speak to your Brother, as he could maybe be a help with advice, or talking to either of them. Your Sister you say has mental health issues, and a lot of what you say about her behaviour could well be due to that . . . is she regularly seeing anyone? (Pyschiatrist, CPN, Psychologist/Therapist)
It may be worth getting her to book an appointment with someone, checking her meds are being taken (if she is on any) etc (I have mental health issues and so do understand it can cause this behaviour)
Is there anyone your Mum could talk to to understand? Could you say it doesn't help your Sister to give her any money as it enables her?0 -
Speak to your brother (today!!!) and then jointly (equally promptly) go to the Government body that is responsible for these "power of attorney" things. Think it's called the "Court of Protection". You and your brother need to get her "power of attorney" removed promptly - before she abuses it any further.
Also contact that elder abuse website another poster recommended.
Your sister is going to ruin everyone's lives at this rate, first your mothers and then there'll be nothing left after your mother is gone too (as your sister will have grabbed the lot and blown it).
Down the line in the far future there is every chance your sister will try and leach directly off you and your brother and you will both need to cut ties with her at that point and have nothing to do with her, so that she doesnt haul you down with her.0 -
WigglyWoo2 wrote: »Argh, where to start...
Obviously I need to be brief and I would love any advice from as many people as poss at this stage. I have no idea what to do...
I have one brother & one sister, our mum is still alive and in her mid 70s, our dad died a year ago. My brother lives in the USA and relations aren't great. My sister and I both have joint Power of Attorney for my mum and she's in good health generally so she looks after her own finances etc at the moment.
My sister has bought a few flats intending to let them out and has over extended herself financially many times in the last 4 years. She gave up a good job due to mental health issues and has ended up living with my Mum paying no rent or bills and her belongings are in storage. My Mum pays for all her food, taxis and even her dog-related costs!
A few weeks before my dad died, while she, my mum and me had joint POA for him (he had dementia) my sister 'borrowed' £15k from my Dad and transferred it from his online bank account. He would have agreed at that moment to a loan but she has not paid it back. It wasn't discussed with me and she was reluctant that I knew as it wasn't in my Dad's best interests.
After this I had a look at the general finances that my sister has in place for her flats and they are a joke and a total mess. She's maxxed out loans and credit cards to.pay for costs and unfortunate hiccups and she has zero financial sense or even common sense. The costs and losses and bad luck so far are hideous and laughable but that's her problem, as an out of work adult she is in the wrong business and needs to wake up.
However it has not stopped with the £15K loan/gift as she has also been asking my mum to bung her thousands and thousands more to make ends meet with builders, solicitors, fees, general mess-ups etc. This includes £5.5K spent as cash deposits at auction buying more flats that she then lost as she couldn't pay the rest. The total that she has taken from my mum and dad is now £27k. My Mum has stopped telling me how much she gives her as she knows it has worried me so much. My Mum doesn't want to give the money away, she knows it is equivalent to throwing it down the drain but she is scared to say No.
There is no sign of an end to the financial mess of my sister as she is currently being sued by the freeholder of the building she owns flats within for non payment of charges, the 'business' makes a huge loss and the wolf is only kept from the door by more scrounging. My sister's irresponsibility with money knows no bounds, she has just paid £3k rent on a holiday home in France that will cost her hundreds to travel to as she cannot drive. My Mum will probably put her in a taxi to the south of France just to get a few weeks peace.
Anyway, my mum is truly scared to rock the boat and fears any reaction from my sister should she refuse to fund her. My Mum is really worried about my sister's mental health as there are issues that may reoccur. My Mum's finances are not bottomless and us other siblings are largely kept in the dark about the money she hands over to my sister. My mum is ashamed to tell us how she has been manipulated but I feel it is my responsibility to protect her.
I'm at the point of wanting to prevent any further gifts of money into the black hole and I feel that my sister is unfit to be POA for anyone! I could make a complaint to the court of protection about her asking a man with a half an hour memory span to lend her £15k weeks before he died and while he was in hospital, but that might blow the family apart for good. I cannot talk to my sister as she is incredibly socially inept and she literally will tut and storm out. She behaves like a spoilt child and she doesn't realise that I know the extent of her mess. She's at the point of lying blatantly about her 'business' and she pretends she has lots of money to anyone outside the household. That is laughable as she cannot afford a taxi. The ongoing costs of the credit and properties are horrendous and there won't ever be an end to this mess as she took out a £220k bridging loan backed by her only property leaving her with nothing but an unprofitable set up.
Help! What would you do if you were the sensible and concerned sibling who feels totally out of their depth and very angry at the position my mum has ended up in? Any advice welcome, I'm gauging opinions and I may well have to speak to my brother asap.
Thank you!
Put in paragraphs for easier reading.0 -
trailingspouse wrote: »This sounds like elder abuse to me. Take a look at this website - https://www.elderabuse.org.uk/. They have a helpline, they might be able to tell you what's possible.WigglyWoo2 wrote: »A few weeks before my dad died, while she, my mum and me had joint POA for him (he had dementia) my sister 'borrowed' £15k from my Dad and transferred it from his online bank account. He would have agreed at that moment to a loan but she has not paid it back. It wasn't discussed with me and she was reluctant that I knew as it wasn't in my Dad's best interests... .
Not only that but this ^^^^ is misuse of the POA.
It doesn't matter that the OP's Father would have loaned his daughter the money if he had had the mental capacity to make that decision.
He didn't have capacity so couldn't make that decision.
https://www.gov.uk/report-concern-about-attorney-deputyContact the Office of the Public Guardian if you have concerns about an attorney or a deputy, eg the misuse of money or decisions that aren’t in the best interests of the person they’re responsible for.
Personally, in such a situation I would have had no hesitation in reporting any joint attorney who had taken funds that I was jointly responsible for to use for their own benefit.
I don't know if something can be done retrospectively or if you even want something done about your Father's money but you need to stop your sister from taking your Mum's money.
If that is what your Mum really wants of course.
She may be telling you she doesn't want to lend her any more money but is just telling you what she thinks you want to hear.
I've had experience of parents telling one sibling one thing and another sibling something totally different.
What is the current situation with the flats your sisters owns?
Is she getting rent?
If she is, what is happening to that income?
Why is your mum scared of your sister?
Is she fearful of physical or mental abuse?
Or has she actually suffered this already?
Your sister is not fit to be named on a POA and if it were me, I'd be talking to my Mum about that without delay.0 -
Get out before you find yourself in a G4 van heading for prison.
Your sister is demonstrably ruthless and will take you down with her. You cannot protect your mother until you protect yourself.
The more daylight shone on these shenanigans, the less likely you are to be thought to be 'in on it'.0 -
This is not going to end well...
Firstly speak to your mum. She needs to understand that she must NOT give any more money to your sister as this is to pay for her care as she gets older.
This is not only deprivation of assets, but also elderly abuse.
Secondly, put it down on paper how much your sister has borrowed, and ask her when she plans to repay it. Give her 14 days to put together a repayment plan.
Could your mum not agree to remove her as POA? That would help!Should've = Should HAVE (not 'of')
Would've = Would HAVE (not 'of')
No, I am not perfect, but yes I do judge people on their use of basic English language. If you didn't know the above, then learn it! (If English is your second language, then you are forgiven!)0 -
Hopefully mother will never need any money to pay for care from anywhere (either herself or the State) but this is certainly a valid concern.
There is the possibility she might be required to pay for care and then the question would arise if the Government went to grab her savings and/or house equity and it was sitting in your sisters pockets that the Government might treat her as if she still had the money. I'm not quite sure what would happen then and perhaps someone else could say what is likely.
I think (but don't quote me on it) that anything deemed given away within 7 years before the Government started wanting to grab for care costs would be deemed still with your mother (even if it wasn't). So, if you put a stop to the sisters grabbing post-haste you might be in time for there to be at least 7 more years before any question arose of the Government wanting some for care costs.0
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