FISTRAL BEACH, Newquay, Inital Parking.. please help!!

Umkomaas

KeithP wrote: »

Did anyone suggest you call them?

You need to write.

Write to Steve Clark, he will understand the issue.

steve.c@britishparking.co.uk

Fruitcake

MinnieSox9 wrote: »

Hi, I’ve just called and spoke to
BPA in regards to advice from Brucella, the woman I spoke to doesn’t agree with me, and is saying the NTK applies, as the day after the alleged is 4th of July + 14 is 18th July when it was received. I tried to explain if you count it as
4th July Day 1
5th July Day 2
Etc etc
Then 18th July is day 15 which is outside?

She doesn’t agree with me, not really sure where I should go from here

That's another PoPLA person who can't count. Perhaps the Sector Expert needs to make a visit in person with a bunch of crayons and paper.

As already mentioned, put all complaints in writing.

Coupon-mad

MinnieSox9 wrote: »

Hi, I’ve just called and spoke to
BPA in regards to advice from Brucella, the woman I spoke to doesn’t agree with me, and is saying the NTK applies, as the day after the alleged is 4th of July + 14 is 18th July when it was received. I tried to explain if you count it as
4th July Day 1
5th July Day 2
Etc etc
Then 18th July is day 15 which is outside?

She doesn’t agree with me, not really sure where I should go from here

Why are you phoning anyone?

I would email Mr Ineson who Brucella said was the Sector Expert.

MinnieSox9

The reason I called is because Brucella said that they had spoke to them and that I should try that, the person he spoke to however agreed with him and told him to email a complaint in. The person I spoke to however didn’t agree with me. I will continue with my draft email and post on here. I will email to POPLA with attention of John Gallagher, should I copy Steve Clark in aswell or email him separate ?

Coupon-mad

I will email to POPLA with attention of John Gallagher.

No, try Mr Ineson. I am sure Brucella's thread said how to work out anyone's email for POPLA.

Don't bother with the BPA at this stage, IMHO, they do NOT get the difference between day 14 and day 15 and will muddy the waters as they are wrong.

MinnieSox9

Hi, please can you all see my below draft. I'm going to send this to John Gallaghar and Mr Ineson,

Thanks!



Parking operator: Initial Parking LTD
POPLA Ref: xxxxxxx/xxxxxxx
PCN no: xxxxx/xxxxx
Vehicle Registration Mark: xxxxx
Car Park: Fistral Beach, Newquay

I recently appealed two Parking Charge Notices through the POPLA service, and I strongly believe procedural errors have resulted in both of my appeals being refused.

This complaint is to bring to your attention a procedural error made by two assessors that has led to two incorrect POPLA appeal decisions, and in addition to this is the reply to my complaint by Ashlea Forshaw. In addition to this, the lack of access to POPLA's Lead Adjudicator, and the inability to request a review of the Complaint Handler's decision - which backs (and compounds) the error made by the assessor.

To clarify both NTK are from Initial Parking LTD for 3rd July.

BOTH Stuart and Adele have interpreted PoFA as “14 working days”, whereas the Schedule actually states “14 days” – the significance being that weekends & bank holidays are counted within this time line.

As stated in my appeal; for keeper liability to apply, PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 (paragraph 9, sub-paragraphs 4b & 5) states that a Notice to Keeper must arrive at the Keeper’s address within 14 days beginning with the day after the period of parking ended. The Notice to Keeper in this case was dated the 16th July 2019, however it arrived two working days later on 18th July, which is the 15th day after the 3rd July alleged parking event. This is also supported in PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 (paragraph 9, sub-paragraph 6) and the Interpretation Act 1978 “presumed…to have been delivered…on the second working day after the day on which it is posted”. The Notice to Keeper therefore arrived a day too late for keeper liability to apply and therefore fails the PoFA 2012.

Timeline:

3rd July – Date of alleged event - Day 0

4th July - Day 1 Start of PoFA Schedule 4, Para 9 timing of 14 days

5th July - Day 2

6th July - Day 3

7th July - Day 4

8th July - Day 5

9th July - Day 6

10th July - Day 7

11th July - Day 8

12th July - Day 9

13th July - Day 10

14th July - Day 11

15th July - Day 12

16th July - Day 13 Date of Notice on NtK. POFA 2012 Schedule 4 (paragraph 9, sub-paragraph 6) and the Interpretation Act 1978 timing commences “presumed…to have been delivered…on the second working day after the day on which it is posted”.

17th July - Day 14 (1st working day after NtK posted)

18th July - Day 15 (2nd working day after NtK posted) Date deemed delivered by PoFA - the law of this country.

Not only do Stuart and Adele display a total misunderstanding of PoFA, more worryingly so does Ashlea Forshaw. They have all incorrectly interpreted PoFA Schedule 4, Paragraph 9.

The law (PoFA Schedule 4 para 9[6]) is very clear that .......
(6)A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.
The 'second working day' was 18 July 2019, and therefore day 15, one whole day outside the strict requirements of PoFA (the law of this country). Unless Initial Parking is able to 'prove to the contrary', POPLA cannot make any assumptions contrary to the law, doing so not only undermines POPLA's credibility to deal with relatively clear legal points which have important implications for the motorist, but your refusal to overrule your Assessors error, suggests a bias not in the interest of the motorist.

I urge you to re-examine PoFA Schedule 4 para 9[6] and further reconsider what is now a further compounding of the two earlier procedural errors.

In regards to the timeline; ‘The Interpretation Act’ refers to any Act where documents are sent, served, or given by post, therefore the PoFA is included.

Interpretation Act 1978
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression ” give ” or ” send ” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

Practice Direction [1985] 1 All ER 889 states that, unless the contrary is proved, First class mail is deemed delivered on the second working day after posting, and Second class the fourth working day after posting. “Working Day” means Monday to Friday not including Bank Holidays.

This means the PoFA isn't the only regulation that applies when documents are posted.
I’d like to refer to a case in which I have seen on MSE where someone has received an NTK from Euro Car Parks ‘The alleged parking contravention occurred on 15th August 2019, the date of the issue of the notice is stated to be 30th August. The date of the notice being 'given' (i.e., delivered) is assumed by PoFA to be the second working day after the date of posting. This puts it on 3rd September. The 14 day notice period begins on 16th August (day 1) and day 14 of the notice period is therefore 29th August. Indeed, the Parking Charge Notice was not issue until after the 14 day period had expired.
They cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper. There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.’

This person like me has had their appeal rejected from POPLA, and are complaining in regards to the continuous failure of the understanding by multiple persons of the compliance with the Protections of Freedoms Act 2012.

The person in question received an email from ‘the Sector Expert’ and it’s now confirmed this is wrong and that POPLA have admitted their Assessors need retraining.

A quotation of the received response
‘POFA cases are surprisingly uncommon, and cases where the operator has got it wrong but continues to pursue at POPLA rarer still. It is clear from the example you have provided below that we have some work to do to ensure that the assessors here understand the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4 and apply its provisions correctly. I am sorry that your experience of POPLA was not better than it was, but I do appreciate you bringing your concerns to us. I want nothing more than for our assessors to come to the correct decision, so I will personally ensure that these assessors receive feedback and training to ensure that such mistakes are not repeated.’

These errors are placing the motorist, unfairly in danger of being sued in the courts by these scammers!


Yours sincerely

Le_Kirk

BOTH Stuart and Adele have interpreted POFA as “14 working days”, whereas the Schedule actually states “14 days” – the significance being that weekends & bank holidays are counted within this time line.

however it arrived two working days later on 18th July

You take great pains to explain to the lead adjudicator about working day and ordinary days and then you state working days. would just days be better?

KeithP

Le_Kirk wrote: »

You take great pains to explain to the lead adjudicator about working day and ordinary days and then you state working days. would just days be better?

That's ok, Le_Kirk.

POFA states that it must arrive within nn days, but when allowing for the time taken for delivery, both POFA and the Interpretation Act state that an item is deemed delivered two working days after posting.

MinnieSox9

Is my wording okay? anything else people would say for me to add?

MinnieSox9

I have sent my complaint to John Gallagher, the POPLA complaints email, and also with Steve and Gemma copied in from British Parking associations.


I have received 2 more letters from the debt people stating my 'final warning'


lets hope I get something positive back from my complaint